How screwed am I?

I currently have a paper-y filter inside the vac and the diffuser has foam inside it with the coarse stuff on the outside.

The vac could easily have its own issues but it and the filter pass visual inspection. It’s 15 years old with very light use and well cared for but still, I dunno🤷‍♂️
 
Somebody made a point earlier that the Mrs will be displaced too while all this goes on in between work and all the other nuances of life in general. We’ve all been there that you get to a certain point and Home Depot is now closed for the night so the supplies have to wait adding even more time to the project.

What does @Jseyfert4 think about calling in the insurance to greatly speed up the process ?
 
If I would have known you had STPP, I probably would have told you to try using that instead of buying TSP. It probably would have also worked... but having TSP around is a pretty handy thing anyway. I am glad it's actually working out well for you. I don't think you are "screwed" after all.
Well @JoyfulNoise says the TSP changes the pH, helping break the mold cell walls, plus being a cleaner. A quick search and TSP in water has a pH of around 12, STPP has a pH of 10. So different things for different purposes.

And even with soft water adding the STPP or TSP still makes the dishwasher work better. :) You should avoid washing Aluminum in a dishwasher with or without the phosphates...
I could try it for baked on stuff, but with rare exceptions the dishes are clean. If they are clean, working better isn't really a thing.

I try to avoid aluminum in general for food stuffs.

Okay.. so if your plywood all looks that good I would not replace the subflooring. It cleaned up nicely, and it does NOT look delaminated.. if you are worried about mold further in the plywood, use a oil based outdoor paint to seal it up. I think you might be in better shape than we all thought yesterday.
Yeah that was my thinking. I still want to pull up some planks in the dining room and inspect the subfloor for molding. I expect there to be mold, and it did bulge up on the other side of the wall. So there may be some subfloor to replace there, but it wouldn't involve ripping out kitchen cabinets.

I'm not thinking paint is needed, with bleach/TSP killing mold on the surface and spraying with borates to prevent future mold growth I don't see why it would be necessary.

What does @Jseyfert4 think about calling in the insurance to greatly speed up the process ?
At this point with the results of yesterday's cleaning, I'm thinking it's not needed. Need to tear into the cabinet on the right a little to get the drywall that's still hidden there, then spray all the wood with borates. Have boric acid coming in on suggestion of @JoyfulNoise (5 lbs so I can use it in my hot tub too) for that. Then get the kitchen side sealed back up with a new dishwasher and drain pan that directs any future water leaks into the unfinished basement where it will (hopefully) be quickly noticed, and not into the drywall/cabinets/subfloor.
 
As long as your are sure you get all of the remaining mold spores out of what you scrub and treat you should be okay. The oil based paint was just an extra insurance to seal in anything you missed. I am a bit of a perfectionist, and for about $8 you can get a quart of the stuff... or even less if you find something that was mis mixed or whatever.... I'd do it but I tend to be a perfectionist,
 
On a side note... while I don't know the electrical codes that apply to you .... the romex wiring coming out of the wall and directly connecting to the dishwasher doesn't pass code in my location. Here, there is usually a duplex outlet under the sink that is used for garbage disposal and dishwasher. The duplex outlet is accessible in the sink cabinet. As well, there is a shutoff for the dishwasher hot water supply located in the sink cabinet. The electric outlet and water shutoff being accessible in the sink cabinet allows easier access to shut off the water or disconnect electric from the dishwasher.

If this applies in your location, you may want to consider doing it now since the cabinet access is opened up.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Mdragger88
If this applies in your location, you may want to consider doing it now since the cabinet access is opened up.
Good catch, and a good idea even if not required by local code.

The only thing I don't like about not exploring for mold, or ripping out more seemingly OK-looking wood, is the length of exposure. If you had caught the leak quick, dried it out quick and treated all the affected wood quick, I wouldn't think twice about buttoning that up. I've done that. But if this leak has been going on for months, or years, then just scrubbing/treating the surface of the wood and/or hiding it with a coat of paint wouldn't sit well with me... Sorry, I know that's easy to say...
 
Agreed, Dirk. Mold, especially black mold is deadly. I've seen schools close down if they find black mold in Houston.

I also missed this thread. I will note that when our sink backs up and fills, the water can flow into the dishwasher and thus overflows when running. The trick is running the garbage disposal often and making sure the sink always drains. We also suspect our dishwasher wasn't hooked up properly after our floors were done.
 
My dishwasher in Iowa was like that too and the house was built in 2002... so it's probably fine in Wisconsin and I think it's okay for NEC because the dishwasher is screwed down with no access to it in normal use. It really isn't a safety concern, honestly, either, if the Romex is physically in good shape. If you think it is and you don't want to cut a hole in the wall and put in an "old work" box another option is to use the flexible conduit from the wall to the dishwasher but even that might be tough to handle when you push the dishwasher back.

The Romex coming out of the wall is typical in the Midwest.

To do it with an outlet will also require you to buy the appropriate line cord, and terminals to splice it in. You can probably do that when you buy the new unit. But at least it's not in an outside wall so you won't have to worry about insulation on the old work box if you choose to change this. It's probably $25 worth of parts if decide to do it. Easily done.

And actually you are to the studs with this, you can also use a new work box and that would be better... just do it prior to the drywall fix.... I'd probably change it since you ripped the wall out, but I wouldn't if didn't need to be ripped out (like if it only was the floor).
 
Okay. yeah... after looking at your picture again, get a plastic new work single gang box and an single receptacle and cover and put it on the stud with the supply wire. run it though the box, trim it leaving about 4" sticking out of the box. When you finish the drywall, then hook up the receptacle and finish the job. Get a line cored for the dishwasher. That will work much better for you there....

I agree. It's so easy in your case it's a no brainer...
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
And by the way, the "black mold" situation is why I have been suggesting (I think here but also in PM's) to go at least a foot past any evidence of damage and also oil based paint whatever was wet and cleaned up. If there were still spores that survived the TSP and bleach, or were missed entirely, they will be permanently sealed in with the paint....

For an appliance leak like this, that should be adequate...
 
On the mold aspect, how far exactly should one go? For example, take this picture:
full


Clearly, the tiles are mounted on the plywood that's gotten wet and molded. Do I tear up the tiles so I can treat the wood? Or since it's covered is it "good enough" and just treating the wood is fine? That line of thinking also translates down to the subfloor, which has undoubtably gotten wet, but replacing all the subfloor that's wet would be a time consuming process (the aforementioned tearing out kitchen cabinets/etc).

On a side note... while I don't know the electrical codes that apply to you .... the romex wiring coming out of the wall and directly connecting to the dishwasher doesn't pass code in my location. Here, there is usually a duplex outlet under the sink that is used for garbage disposal and dishwasher. The duplex outlet is accessible in the sink cabinet. As well, there is a shutoff for the dishwasher hot water supply located in the sink cabinet. The electric outlet and water shutoff being accessible in the sink cabinet allows easier access to shut off the water or disconnect electric from the dishwasher.

If this applies in your location, you may want to consider doing it now since the cabinet access is opened up.
My impression is this type of hookup is totally fine with the NEC. Local codes could vary I suppose. Interestingly enough the wording of the NEC states that built-in dishwashers shall be "permitted" to be cord-and-plug-connected...implying that hardwiring is the norm, not the exception.

Okay. yeah... after looking at your picture again, get a plastic new work single gang box and an single receptacle and cover and put it on the stud with the supply wire. run it though the box, trim it leaving about 4" sticking out of the box. When you finish the drywall, then hook up the receptacle and finish the job. Get a line cored for the dishwasher. That will work much better for you there....
I could put a receptacle over under the sink, but not behind the dishwasher where the wire currently exits:
422.16(B)(2) Built-in Dishwashers and Trash Compactors. Built-in dishwashers and trash compactors shall be permitted to be cord-and- plug-connected with a flexible cord identified as suitable for the purpose in the installation instructions of the appliance manufacturer where all of the following conditions are met:
(1) The flexible cord shall be terminated with a grounding-type attachment plug.
Exception: A listed dishwasher or trash compactor distinctly marked to identify it as protected by a system of double insulation shall not be required to be terminated with a grounding-type attachment plug.
(2) For a trash compactor, the length of the cord shall be 0.9 m to 1.2 m (3 ft to 4 ft) measured from the face of the attachment plug to the plane of the rear of the appliance.
(3) For a built-in dishwasher, the length of the cord shall be 0.9 m to 2.0 m (3 ft to 6.5 ft) measured from the face of the attachment plug to the plane of the rear of the appliance.
(4) Receptacles shall be located to protect against physical damage to the flexible cord.
(5) The receptacle for a trash compactor shall be located in the space occupied by the appliance or adjacent thereto.
(6) The receptacle for a built-in dishwasher shall be located in the space adjacent to the space occupied by the dishwasher.
(7) The receptacle shall be accessible.

Honestly, besides a slightly easier connection, I'm not sure what being cord and plug gets me. Better for service perhaps, as you could test it using an extension cord while removed from the cabinet?

I also missed this thread. I will note that when our sink backs up and fills, the water can flow into the dishwasher and thus overflows when running. The trick is running the garbage disposal often and making sure the sink always drains. We also suspect our dishwasher wasn't hooked up properly after our floors were done.
I'm not an expert on plumbing codes but I do know this is why some places have adopted requirements for air gaps above the flood level of the sink. You've probably seen these. A little round thing sticking up behind the sink with a slot in it. Previously (and in some places still allowed) code required a loop in the drain hose with the highest point being as high as possible, usually directly under the countertop. The new air gaps above the sink are even better. They make it impossible for a plugged up sink to backfeed into the dishwasher. Unfortunately a lot of people don't understand how to route dishwasher drain hoses and I've seen a lot of cases, including how this current dishwasher was installed, where there wasn't even a high loop of drain hose. I'm going to be adding an air gap when I install the new dishwasher.

Also out of curiosity, how often does your sink back up? In the 10 years I've been living on my own I've never had a kitchen sink back up, though to be fair the longest I've lived anywhere on my own is currently 3.5 years.
 
Is the sink to the right of the dishwasher? If so you still have plenty of Romex left to make it there. It's safe to drill the 1/2" sized holes in the middle of 2x4"s even if the wall is lead bearing. Just don't drill near one of the walls. I understand why they want it under the sink (because then you can unplug the dishwasher without taking it out) but, geeze, it's still probably better to have it than a Romex coming out of the wall like that.. though, honestly in my last house went through three dishwashers and never had a problem with the wire coming out.

As for the "burping" gap.. I hate those ones that are on top of the sinks.. (I removed it in Iowa). If you do a gap like that under the sink but at the level of the countertop it's not impossible to have it flow into the dishwasher, but it's highly unlikely... If it does happen you'll likely be there and notice it to deal with it....
 
Honestly, besides a slightly easier connection, I'm not sure what being cord and plug gets me. Better for service perhaps, as you could test it using an extension cord while removed from the cabinet?
I'm going to extend the reason microwaves are wired the way they are to dishwashers, to answer this question. It's code here in CA (maybe national?) to plug a permanently mounted microwave oven into an outlet that is NOT in the same cabinet space as, or behind, the microwave. The reason is to allow a way to quickly disconnect the unit should it be necessary. For example, if your microwave is shorting out, maybe on fire, you can quickly unplug it without touching, let alone moving, the microwave.

It also makes for easier removal/replacement of the microwave, since no Romex wiring is necessary.

I don't know if that is code in CA for dishwashers, or if the same reasoning applies, but I've never seen one wired otherwise. Always a tail wired to the DW, run through a hole in the cabinet to a 120V outlet in the wall under the kitchen sink. As described earlier, it's usually an outlet that is wired one half unswitched (for the DW) and the other half switched (for the garbage disposer).

With a new work box this would be so easy to do with the wall open. Then you just wire a 120V tail to the DW and you're done. Not to rub it in, but you've already got the hole between the two cabinets...
 
  • Like
Reactions: proavia
As for the sink backing up. .. Easy to do when you don't use the garbage disposal very often . . . . And dishes pile up in the sink. You've never had a sink full of dishes and they sit in water without your knowing? What if a plate blocks the sink drainage?
Another thing is we seldom use our garbage disposal. We compost any greens.

As for black mold -- Google 'black mold in Houston' and find various articles / sources. They shouldn't downplay how bad it is. Mold is a huge reason why recovery after flooding is so bad.
 
Do I tear up the tiles so I can treat the wood?
Remove the tiles and replace the wood, not just treat it. Looks like the seam on the left would be a good place to stop. The plywood is laminated and at least two of the ends of the plies were exposed to the water. Just treating the top layer doesn't address what might have seeped into the layers. And before you argue that the layers are all sealed up with glue, go take a look at the edge of just about any kind of plywood (certainly the grade used for flooring). You'll see convenient voids all along the edge, just right for wicking water right into the heart of the plywood.

I mentioned earlier about a judgement call. This is that. What are the chances water got where you don't want to even look, let alone replace? What are the consequences of guessing wrong about those chances? The only way to know for sure that you've removed all possibility of mold is to remove all the wood that got wet...

But at some point, you're going to want to (have to) compromise. Despite my "easier-said-than-done sage advice," I doubt I would touch the bottom plate (the bottom horizontal 2x4), and that is likely sitting on top of more subfloor (possibly plywood). Which probably got wet. All depends on how the house was framed. But I would take out what I could and then treat the heck out of the rest and possibly seal it up afterwards.

devil-angel-shoulders-pop-art-vector-devil-angel-businessman-shoulders-pop-art-retro-vector-il...jpg
 
  • Haha
Reactions: jseyfert3
As for the sink backing up. .. Easy to do when you don't use the garbage disposal very often . . . . And dishes pile up in the sink. You've never had a sink full of dishes and they sit in water without your knowing? What if a plate blocks the sink drainage?
Another thing is we seldom use our garbage disposal. We compost any greens.
Wait, how does a plate plugging the sink drain cause the dishwasher to fill up with water from the sink? :unsure:

And if draining a sink of water backflows into your dishwasher, that means your hose is routed wrong. That shouldn’t happen if your drain hose had a high loop up to the height of your counter under the sink, but could definitely happen if it routes mostly straight or downhill from the garbage disposal to the dishwasher.

Also my dishwasher drains into the side of the sink without the garbage disposal, so the disposal plugging would have no effect on the dishwasher.

And finally (lol) yes I sometimes have dishes in the sink but not often. It drives me nuts to have dirty dishes in the sink cause it blocks you from quickly hand washing something that can’t go in the dishwasher or something you need washed now cause you’re cooking and need it and it hadn’t gotten washed yet from last time, or you used it to measure X and need it clean to measure Y or similar. So I try to keep my sinks clear.

As for black mold -- Google 'black mold in Houston' and find various articles / sources. They shouldn't downplay how bad it is. Mold is a huge reason why recovery after flooding is so bad.
Who shouldn’t downplay how bad it is?

But at some point, you're going to want to (have to) compromise. Despite my "easier-said-than-done sage advice," I doubt I would touch the bottom plate (the bottom horizontal 2x4), and that is likely sitting on top of more subfloor (possibly plywood). Which probably got wet. All depends on how the house was framed. But I would take out what I could and then treat the heck out of the rest and possibly seal it up afterwards.
Not possibly in either case, 100% it happened. You can see in my pics the bottom plate is sitting on subfloor (which is plywood) and you can also see that’s where the water drained. I noticed this leak when I saw water on my basement floor, which had dropped out of a joint between two sheets of subfloor. The question isn’t if the subfloor got wet but if it’s an issue to leave it where it’s otherwise covered up, and treat where it’s exposed.
 
The question isn’t if the subfloor got wet but if it’s an issue to leave it where it’s otherwise covered up, and treat where it’s exposed.
Yah, I don't know all the properties of black mold. And what sealing it up does or how safe that makes it. I supposed if you starve it of oxygen it will die. But how resilient it is, if allowed any air or moisture is beyond me. And I'm not sure you could seal everything up well enough, as there are bound to be cracks and crevices. But, again, I don't know how well it can survive and how much of it could get back to your living space.

The problem with just treating it (just a hunch) is that you're assuming the treatment will permeate everywhere the water got to. Seems like that could happen, but it depends on how porous everything is. If you treat with some sort of liquid for a minute, or a day, is it going to permeate everywhere the DW water got to, given that water was at it for weeks or months or more...
 
Wait, how does a plate plugging the sink drain cause the dishwasher to fill up with water from the sink? :unsure:
There's several different scenarios, depending on how your dishwasher (DW) drain returns to the sink's drainage system (and how many sinks you have). There are three ways (at least?) to plumb the DW drain. One is like yours, directly into the drain system. The second goes first into a garbage disposer (GD), which leads into the drain system. Of the two, into the GD is preferred, only because the GD can chew up any large chunks of food before introducing that waste into the sewer system. But neither of those routes is affected by how many dishes are in the sink, or if the sink is stopped up.

The third route is through an air gap fitting over your sink. That MO is a two-fer. The DW waste routes through that fitting such that if the drain system ever got backed up, the DW waste water would empty into the sink, rather than back-flowing back into the DW. The best way to plumb the air gap is to have the gap over one sink, and the exit hose from the air gap plumbed to the drain (or GD) of the other sink. So say the GD gets clogged up, then the DW waste would back up but exit through the air gap (instead of back flowing to the DW) and drain into the other sink. If that sink's drain is free, then the DW waste goes through to the sewer. But if both sinks are backed up, then the DW waste will collect in the sink, hopefully not overflowing it before noticed. So a correctly routed air-gap setup is the safest, because there are several places the DW waste can end up before it gets back to the DW or onto your floor. Whew, OK...

One way dishes in the sink matter is if the air gap gets used, and the DW waste gets trapped in the sink due to dirty dishes or a closed strainer or otherwise blocked sink drain.

As mentioned, you're supposed to run the GD right before you run the DW, clear the path between the air gap and sink, and be sure all the drains are open and ideally no dishes in the sink. But that's if you have an air gap. You don't, and your DW drain doesn't run to a GD, so none of the above applies to you.

But if you were inspired, you could redo that. Your "worst case" is DW food waste routed directly to the drain pipe, which could get backed up, and then you'll have a real mess. It might backflow into the sink, if that sinks drain is clear, or it might backflow to the DW. This is the other reason a sink full of dishes blocking the drain matters: but only if the drain pipe is clogged. I don't know that the loop under the counter is going to matter much in that scenario.

The loop under the counter is really only for keeping the sink water from getting to the DW, which it does, unless the level of water in the sink is higher than the loop. Which is why an air gap over the sink is better for that, too, because the air gap is never going to be lower than the water in the sink.

So... the best way to plumb the DW drain line:
DW --> air gap --> GD, with the air gap fitting over the non-GD sink if you have two sinks.

If you don't have a GD, then it's:
DW --> air gap --> drain pipe of sink #2, with the air gap fitting over sink #1, if you have two sinks.
 
Last edited:
Yah, I don't know all the properties of black mold. And what sealing it up does or how safe that makes it. I supposed if you starve it of oxygen it will die. But how resilient it is, if allowed any air or moisture is beyond me. And I'm not sure you could seal everything up well enough, as there are bound to be cracks and crevices. But, again, I don't know how well it can survive and how much of it could get back to your living space.

The problem with just treating it (just a hunch) is that you're assuming the treatment will permeate everywhere the water got to. Seems like that could happen, but it depends on how porous everything is. If you treat with some sort of liquid for a minute, or a day, is it going to permeate everywhere the DW water got to, given that water was at it for weeks or months or more...
So I did some more searching and ran across info from the EPA. There's no federal regulations on mold (nor state from what I found on Wisconsin DHS). They have some basic tips on mold cleanup, and say if more than 10 ft^2 consider hiring someone or refer to mold remediation in schools and commercial buildings. So I did. I've browsed through this PDF by the EPA and the summary is...use your professional judgement for when mold remediation is completed.

Here's my basic understanding. Mold needs three things to grow. Food, oxygen, and water. This is why if I leave a dirty lunch food container closed on the counter mold will grow on the food residue (not like this has ever happened before...). But if I remove the cover so the food residue dries, mold doesn't grow. And in the case of my homemade cider, mold doesn't grow on the cider if the fermentation process starts promptly because the fermentation drives out oxygen with all the CO2 produced, so even though it's wet and there's food, there's no oxygen.

So drying the area will kill the mold. However dead mold spores can still cause health issues if they get airborn. So you clean the wood surfaces (done in this case already, for what I've currently exposed). There may be some mold spores inside the wood (or in the subfloor) but they'd be trapped. So you've cleaned off the surfaces that are exposed, and everything is dry. Apply borates or similar to help prevent future growth for good measure (which again regrowth shouldn't happen if things are dry). Perhaps paint the areas to trap any remaining dead mold spores not cleaned up during the cleaning process. Apply new drywall and carry on. At least that's how I see it right now, after reading the rather vague guidelines from the EPA and the Wisconsin DHS.
 

Enjoying this content?

Support TFP with a donation.

Give Support
Thread Status
Hello , This thread has been inactive for over 60 days. New postings here are unlikely to be seen or responded to by other members. For better visibility, consider Starting A New Thread.