How Do I Find A PebbleTec Plaster Expert?

[mrsfluff]

Hi all. I need an expert witness for a lawsuit against my former pool guy who destroyed my plaster with acid wash. I DREAD this. Like reallllly dread this. But this is what the courts do to us. They threaten that if we don't have experts, we'll lose. I don't agree, my case is not that complicated. It's pretty easy to prove. But I CANNOT afford to lose (altho nothing is a guarantee, for sure). Like many folks, I can't afford some high priced "subject matter expert". I need a pool guy, A REAL GUY who knows his stuff, not some stuffed shirt looking for a big payday. I'm located in south central NJ if that helps. Thank you!

 

[Jimrahbe]

Fluff,

Let's see if @onBalance has any words of wisdom for ya!!

Might help if you outlined the issue with your plaster.

Even if you win the case it doesn't mean you will ever get any money.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[mrsfluff]

Fluff,

Let's see if @onBalance has any words of wisdom for ya!!

Might help if you outlined the issue with your plaster.

Even if you win the case it doesn't mean you will ever get any money.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Hi Jim,

Oh I'll get the money alright. I know this guy...he does not want his property seized. And I will do that if he tries anything.

The issue is that my pool guy suggested an acid wash 6 years ago. I have since learned that acid washing pebble tec plaster is contraindicated, and that even if there were stains, it's not recommended. My plaster was entirely intact. No stains, no build up or any other issues. Pool guy said it would "freshen up" the plaster. Wtf did I know? Nothing about that stuff, obviously. But I trusted him as he was very trustworthy for the years he serviced my pool. He is a young guy and I think he was stepping a bit too far out of his zone. I asked him if he'd done other pools like mine and he said he had. Who knows. I gave him the statutory 6 years in NJ for structural damage. He maintains he did nothing wrong. But he did and needs to make it right. I am now looking for an expert of sorts. I have no money to throw around. This is really important. I do not want to hire some paid mouthpiece off the internet. It is truly disgusting that we get threatened by judges as to our chances of winning without "an expert". This case CAN be proven without one...but I have to pay someone to say what I already know. Infuriating.

 

[JamesW]

It's pretty easy to prove.

This case CAN be proven without one

What proof do you have?

Explain your case.

How old is the plaster?

 

[JamesW]

Acid washing is a relatively common practice, so you will have a hard time claiming that it was an inappropriate thing to do.

For every person who you could find that would say that it was wrong, the contractor could find 10 people who will say that it is sometimes appropriate.

Your plaster is 19 years old, which is a typical life for plaster.

So, even if you could establish that an acid wash was inappropriate, the lifetime of the plaster is used up, which makes the value basically zero.

I seriously doubt that you can prove your case and even if you could, I don’t see how a judge would award you any damages.

 

[mrsfluff]

Acid washing is a relatively common practice, so you will have a hard time claiming that it was an inappropriate thing to do.

For every person who you could find that would say that it was wrong, the contractor could find 10 people who will say that it is sometimes appropriate.

Your plaster is 19 years old, which is a typical life for plaster.

So, even if you could establish that an acid wash was inappropriate, the lifetime of the plaster is used up, which makes the value basically zero.

I seriously doubt that you can prove your case and even if you could, I don’t see how a judge would award you any damages.

You have no idea what you're talking about. My plaster was 11 years old at the time. It was perfectly intact. Not a thing wrong. This service was offered as a means to "freshen up" the plaster. You are the only one with this grossly uninformed position. And I will not lay out my legal argument here. Are you serious? Bottom line: if there are inherent potential issues, the contractor needs to say so in the contract. If the contractor tries to say that the plaster was already compromised? He was wrong to acid wash. Acid washing is not recommended for pebble tec.

 

[JamesW]

My pool was built in 2004. It is approx 40x22, pebble tec with DE filter. I have never had any issues until now.
Last year, upon the advice of my pool guy, I acid washed the pool.

The pool was built in 2004 and acid washed in 2017, which makes the plaster 13 years old at the time unless the pool had been replastered in 2006.

Not a thing wrong.

Then why agree to an acid wash?

This service was offered as a means to "freshen up" the plaster.

What does that mean?

If it was perfect, why did it need to be "Freshened up"

Bottom line: if there are inherent potential issues, the contractor needs to say so in the contract.

Show the contract.

In any case, the plaster is now 19 years old unless it was replastered, which puts it at the end of its useful life.

What do you expect the person to pay for, a whole new replaster?

 

[mrsfluff]

The pool was built in 2004 and acid washed in 2017, which makes the plaster 13 years old at the time unless the pool had been replastered in 2006.

Then why agree to an acid wash?

What does that mean?

If it was perfect, why did it need to be "Freshened up"

Show the contract.

In any case, the plaster is now 19 years old unless it was replastered, which puts it at the end of its useful life.

What do you expect the person to pay for, a whole new replaster?

The pebble plaster was done in 2006. The acid wash was in 2017.

 

[JamesW]

Why was the plaster done 2 years after the pool was built?

What compensation do you feel is fair from the service person?

 

[JamesW]

And I will not lay out my legal argument here.

Why not?

At some point, you need to present a cause of action and a bill of particulars that explains your legal theory as well the actual details that support your claims.

We can tell you if it makes any logical sense from a construction point of view.

New York City Civil Court: Bill of Particulars

 

[JamesW]

What compensation are you seeking in this matter?

Have you contacted the original contractor with your complaint?

If yes, has the original contractor responded to your complaint?

If yes, what is their answer to your complaint?

Honestly, I don’t think that you have much of a case.

Have you contacted any local service people to advise you?

If yes, do any agree that the acid wash was negligent or bad practice?

If yes, then why not use them as your expert witness?

 

[JamesW]

But by the end of the pool season, around August, I think it was, that first weird dark blue-greenish discoloration presented in one small area where the return water drops off.

I do think that part of it was from removing the mineral cartridge earlier that year.

Because that discoloration dissipated over time.

But as that went away, the more widespread blotches of a deeper tone of turquoise started to become evident.

Turquoise is indicitave of copper stains, the mineral cartridge also supports the copper stain hypothesis.

Turquoise and black are probably the result of copper stains.

Maybe you can show pictures of your pool and plaster so we can better understand what you are talking about.

 

[JamesW]

I do not agree with doing acid washes except in very rare cases.

In my opinion, acid washes are a last resort and should only be done if there is no other choice.

In my opinion, most acid washes are unnecessary and do more harm than good.

That being said, there are plenty of people who do recommend acid washes, so that makes it somewhat of an accepted procedure.

So, you will have a difficult time saying that the industry is unanimous in saying that acid washes are never appropriate or that doing an acid wash is negligent or malpractice.

How often should I have my Pool Acid Washed & Pool Drained?

Because of the Valley's hard water and high summer pool evaporation, we recommended you drain and acid wash your pool every one to two years to help remove excess calcium, algae and other contaminates that may lead to interior pool staining and that unsightly white ring on your pool tile and pebble-tec surface.

How Does Pebble Tec & Pool Tile Cleaning and Pool Acid Wash Work In Phoenix, AZ

How does pool tile and pebble tec cleaning with pool acid wash services work in the Phoenix, AZ? Learn more from the experts Bullfrog Pool Tile Cleaning and contact us today!

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HOW OFTEN SHOULD MY POOL BE ACID WASHED?

Truth: acid washing is like bringing out the big guns — it’s not to be taken lightly or done too frequently. If you regularly clean your pool and keep it in good shape, chances are you’ll only need to acid wash your swimming pool every 5-7 years. But because acid washing uses harsh chemicals, it’s not recommended to get your pool acid washed more frequently than that, as the harsh chemicals used can damage your pool’s surface.

Pool Acid Wash Experts | Stain Removal | Chandler Gilbert Arizona

Pool acid wash in Chandler and Gilbert. Make your pool look it's best by removing ugly dirt and rust stains. Safe and affordable. Free Estmate

www.arizonabeadblasting.com

A pool acid washing service is recommended when the pool has been neglected for extended period of time and/or when there are stubborn pool finish stains. Acid washing your pool walls helps clean nasty stains and leaves your pool walls on your plaster or Pebble Tec pool looking like brand new again. Most of our customers require pool acid washing every 3-5 years.

AQUASURE POOLS ACID WASHING

AquaSure Pools offers industry leading expert acid washing service. Acid Washing is recommended for cleaning stubborn stains or neglected pools. Call Us Today to take advantage of our Acid Washing Pool Cleaning Services

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Stains from algae and other organic matter make a pool look unsanitary even when it isn’t. An acid wash makes plaster and Pebble Tech pools look new again. It is a highly effective treatment for algae stains on both pool types, and mineral stains on Pebble Tech walls. However, an acid wash is not a solution for mineral stains at the water line, which require a different type of cleaning.

Pool Acid Washing Gilbert | Pool Service Gilbert | Phoenix East Valley

Acid washing makes plaster and Pebble Tech pools look new again. Revitalize you pool today, call for an appointment with a trained tech, 480-748-3022.

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[JamesW]

https://www.primerapools.com/uploads/cms/nav-8-5cf92a2e6fa5d.pdf

 

[JamesW]

Just to be clear, I agree that the acid wash was probably unnecessary and that there were probably less aggressive methods available to resolve whatever problem you had.

Acid washes are always harmful to the surface because acid eats away the cement that binds the pebble together, which causes the pebble to be exposed and to fall out.

However, you have two main problems.

1) Acid washes are done often enough to constitute accepted industry practice.

2) Your plaster is at the end of its useful life; so even if you could establish that the person damaged the plaster and that they are liable, damages are negligible because you would normally have to plaster at this time anyway.

 

[Newdude]

2) Your plaster is at the end of its useful life; so even if you could establish that the person damaged the plaster and that they are liable, damages are negligible because you would normally have to plaster at this time anyway.

^^^^^ this.

To me, the best you can argue is that there was 2 or 3 years left on the life of the plaster. Conventional wisdom says it's easy to accelerate demise when any product is already near that point at the time of XYZ work.

If you needed extensive work done on a 2006 vehicle, other things would break / bolts would snap getting to the parts that needed repair. That would never be the mechanics fault in the eyes of the law. Did he do it ? Yes. But. He wasn't working on a 2020 vehicle in much better shape.

All that said, I do feel for you. Best wishes.

 

[TinFoilHat]

While being a newbie here I thought I'd drop my own experience in here. I have a 22 year old Pebbletec pool that got acid washed for the first time three years ago. We did it because of the calcium that had accumulated on what we thought was the top few inches of the pebble, but when they washed it there was a marked difference between unwashed and washed pebble. So I feel the wash did what it was supposed to do. They said we should have been acid washing every 5 years which I wasn't buying. Unless I see the problem I see no need to perform the wash. It did not remove a rust stain left from a lost bobby pin that had been in the pebble for a few years but they didn't claim that it would. They also said they didn't want to wash it a second time as it would be too harsh. We have had no poor effects since the wash though there are a couple of vertical streaks left over, submerged under water.

 

[mrsfluff]

While being a newbie here I thought I'd drop my own experience in here. I have a 22 year old Pebbletec pool that got acid washed for the first time three years ago. We did it because of the calcium that had accumulated on what we thought was the top few inches of the pebble, but when they washed it there was a marked difference between unwashed and washed pebble. So I feel the wash did what it was supposed to do. They said we should have been acid washing every 5 years which I wasn't buying. Unless I see the problem I see no need to perform the wash. It did not remove a rust stain left from a lost bobby pin that had been in the pebble for a few years but they didn't claim that it would. They also said they didn't want to wash it a second time as it would be too harsh. We have had no poor effects since the wash though there are a couple of vertical streaks left over, submerged under water.

Hi. Welcome. Pebble Tec should last 20+ years. You will hear many in the know say it could well outlast us. Some folks chime in who know nothing, they merely think they do. It is very risky, and not advisable to acid wash PebbleTec. I spoke to PebbleTec the other day, they strongly advise against it. Veteran pool guys will tell you the same thing. I have seen others' photos on this and other forums whose pools have been ruined by acid wash. Those that try to blame the customer for anything that went wrong are unscrupulous. Unless you signed a contract that explicitly said that there are inherent pitfalls, and that you accept them, then the contractor is liable. My pool guy suggested it as a maintenance measure. Nothing more. My plaster was pristine. 11 years...actually, not even (only by straight math (2017-2006)...it was actually 10 years as that season hadn't yet started. I knew nothing whatsoever at that time about acid washing. As I might have stated here, I knew my pool guy for a few years, I trusted him. But stuff happens. He goofed. He didn't do anything malicious, it was merely a means to create a win-win that failed miserably. Soon after the wash, I noticed the exorbitant number of pebbles falling off throughout that season. He said it was normal for "some" to fall off. What is "some"? Heck if I know. Anyway, it would have been nice if he admitted his goof up, but instead, he opted to use a lawyer to do his bidding. He has no defense. His lawyer basically had 3 things to say: 1. I waited 6 years (that fell flat because you have 6 years in NJ for structural damage); 2. I didn't do anything to remediate the problem in 6 years (there isn't anything that can be done); 3. Pool guy maintains he did the job correctly (that's what they all say). The very bottom line is that the contract is one's first, best evidence. There is nothing in it about pitfalls/stains. It was just a "routine" measure by all accounts.

Re your rust stain from the bobby pin, I have a method I used to remove a very small spot from a nut or screw that popped off something. I ground up vitamin C tablets, placed them in a sock, and laid it over the stain. It worked! It might take a bit of time as it's a very gentle process. I don't recall how long it took because it was too long ago to recall. If it's in the deep end, it can be challenging to get it where you need it unless you are willing to dive under. Once there, it should stay put just fine. If you can reach it, lift it up now and then, give it a little brushing with something soft bristled. You'll see if there is any progress. I know there are other methods, like placing a chlorine puck on top. However, I do not want to give you any bad advice! I suggest perusing the forum/Internet for a consensus. Good luck!

 

[mrsfluff]

^^^^^ this.

To me, the best you can argue is that there was 2 or 3 years left on the life of the plaster. Conventional wisdom says it's easy to accelerate demise when any product is already near that point at the time of XYZ work.

If you needed extensive work done on a 2006 vehicle, other things would break / bolts would snap getting to the parts that needed repair. That would never be the mechanics fault in the eyes of the law. Did he do it ? Yes. But. He wasn't working on a 2020 vehicle in much better shape.

All that said, I do feel for you. Best wishes.

The plaster was 10 seasons old. In pristine condition. PebbleTec is a 20+ year product. Hence, all these doomsday arguments are null & void.

 

[JamesW]

You need an expert to testify that the acid wash was inappropriate or malpractice.

Maybe you will find that person and maybe you won’t.

In my opinion, you don’t have much of a case.

The contractor can show that acid washing is accepted industry practice.

So, even if you find an expert to testify for you, the contractor can counter with their own expert to say that it is an accepted industry practice.

They can also argue that the plaster is at the end of its normal life, so the value is basically zero.

In any case, to answer your original question, we probably cannot help you find an expert and even if I knew an expert, I would not refer your case as I believe it has no merit.