How do decide on builder?

[91_two]

Hello everyone, I have been doing a lot of lurking and information gathering in plans to get a pool installed. I am located in South Carolina. I have four different bids varying in price, but each contractor uses different equipment from the big names. I am still gathering information on specific models, but below is what I have acquired so far. Does anything stand out to you as being the best or concerning? We are going to go larger on concrete no matter who we go with as we are blending this into a covered patio we are also doing. Contractor B also provided a bid for a porch and was extremely competitive for that piece, but more expensive for the pool. I would say Contractor A has been our favorite, but also is one of the cheapest. Contractor A came very well recommended and was the only ones to mark our yard of a potential layout. They took a lot of time chatting, and turned around a quote quickly.

Best communication: A and D

18x36 rectangle 8ft deep
Wedding Cake Steps
Deep end bench full width
vinyl over stair
All are metal pool walls
Salt

Contractor A - $56,300 and 5% off by April 30
Pump: Pentair IntelliFlo3 VSF 3hp Pump 011077
Filter: Pentair C&C SD80 sand filter 145333
Lights: Pentair Microbrite ($1000 each to add more)
Salt System: Pentair Intellichlor IC40 520555
Vinyl: Latham liners
Steps: Vinyl
Coping: Cantilever edge
Concrete Included: 8x8x4x4
2 drains
1 skimmer
2 or 3 returns
1 led light included, we are going to do 3
Umbrella mounts are $25 a piece
Not included in price -Dirt removal $150 an hour, the estimate is 8 hours so $1200~

Contractor D - $59,105
Pump: Pump: TriStar® VS 900 Variable Speed Pump 1.85HP 115/230V #HAY-10-3234
Filter: Hayward 244T
Lights: 3 Hayward Spa lights
Salt System: Hayward AquaRite S3 Omni
Vinyl: Latham liners
Steps: Vinyl
Coping: Concrete cantilever
Concrete Included: 950 sqft
2 drains
1 skimmer, but can do 2 if requested
2 or 3 returns
3 led light included
2 concrete umbrella mounts if wanted free
Not included in price - Extra dirt removal is $400 per truck. They estimate 10 truckloads so about $4,000
Polaris 8642IQ pool robot

Contractor F - Waiting on quote



Contractor B - $68,500
Pump: Jandy VS Flopro 1.85HP
Filter: Jandy Pro series sand filter top mount w 2” valve SFTM24-2.0
Lights: Jandy Pro Series LED underwater 12W 100; cord ($1000 each to add more)
Salt System: Jandy Truclear
Vinyl: Tara or Merlin liners
Steps: Vinyl
Coping: Cantilever edge
Concrete Included: 4x4x4x4
2 drains
1 skimmer
returns?
1 led light included
Not included in price - Dirt removal is $400 per truck, estimate is 15 trucks so $6000~

Contractor C - $73,500
Pump: Pentair Superflo VS 2hp
Filter: Pentair C&C SD 60 Sand
Lights: Pentair Microbrite
Salt System: IntelliCenter i5P w/SALT
Vinyl: Tara or Merlin liners
Steps: Vinyl
Coping: Gray aluminum, can change to cantilever
Concrete Included: 4x4x8x8
2 drains
2 skimmer
1 overflow
returns?
3 led light included

Contractor E - $89,592
Not sure on models
Pump: Pentair
Filter: Pentair Cartridge FIlter
Lights: Pentair Microbrite
Salt System: Pentair
Vinyl: Latham liners
Steps: Vinyl
Coping: Cantilever edge
Concrete Included: 8x8x4x4
2 drains
1 skimmer
3 returns
3 led 1.5" lights
Not included in price -Dirt removal $500 per load

 

[HermanTX]

Welcome to TFP. This will become your build thread so keep all questions and updates on this thread.

IMO - builder A has the best equipment (pump, filter, SWCG, etc). However, they do not include an automation system which builder C does. That is a $2-3k piece of equipment. You do not need it but it does add some convenience for control.

There is no heater - just wish to confirm that.

I would go with a Pentair cartridge filter vs a sand filter but either will work.

I have not dealt with a vinyl pool so others can comment on the mfg type and drains/skimmers.

I have had Jandy equipment and if there is a choice between it and Pentair I would pick Pentair so I would not go with Builder B. Also builder B is offering a less powerful pump and a very poor model SWCG. Jandy does have adequate equipment but it was not offered.

Only you can judge the quality, communication and support after construction to determine who is better. Also, another factor could be payment terms. It is recommended to hold back at least 10% of the total cost until the pool is completely finished and all equipment is functioning.

 

[pjt]

18x36 rectangle 8ft deep

You might even consider 9' for the deepest part. I would suggest 4' for the shallow end.

Pentair IntelliFlo3 VSF 3hp

Excellent pump. Whatever brand you choose, get a 2.7 or 3.0 hp pump.

Pentair C&C SD80 sand filter

I would recommend a large cartridge filter. The CCP520 is excellent.

Pentair Intellichlor IC40

What's the estimated volume of the pool? Get a SWCG rated for at least twice the pool volume.

2 drains
1 skimmer

I would go with 2 skimmers and no main drain.

I would recommend selecting the builder that listens to you and communicates. Don't choose a builder that cuts corners or performs work in the cheapest way.

Construction Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

Equipment Pad Best Practices - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

How to Pick a Pool Builder

We've tried to make that process easier for you with some Great Pool Builder tips, Advice, & Guide to follow when choosing a pool contractor for your build.

www.troublefreepool.com

Before You Build

Before you build a swimming pool, check out what our highly rated experts and pool owners say you should think about while planning.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[PoolStored]

+1 for all the above.
I too would get rid of the drains in a vinyl pool. I would require 2 skimmers. Make sure that skimmer mouths face the prevailing winds, so winds push debris to the skimmers.

Look forward to build pics!

 

[91_two]

Welcome to TFP. This will become your build thread so keep all questions and updates on this thread.

IMO - builder A has the best equipment (pump, filter, SWCG, etc). However, they do not include an automation system which builder C does. That is a $2-3k piece of equipment. You do not need it but it does add some convenience for control.

There is no heater - just wish to confirm that.

I would go with a Pentair cartridge filter vs a sand filter but either will work.

I have not dealt with a vinyl pool so others can comment on the mfg type and drains/skimmers.

I have had Jandy equipment and if there is a choice between it and Pentair I would pick Pentair so I would not go with Builder B. Also builder B is offering a less powerful pump and a very poor model SWCG. Jandy does have adequate equipment but it was not offered.

Only you can judge the quality, communication and support after construction to determine who is better. Also, another factor could be payment terms. It is recommended to hold back at least 10% of the total cost until the pool is completely finished and all equipment is functioning.

Thank you! I will ask if they have an automation system they use or recommend. I have not read up much on that so I will do so.
Correct, no heater, but I have asked all builders to leave room for one if I wanted to add it down the line. I have no gas here, only electric.
I have read up on cartridge filters and like the looks and cleaning tech of the aquastar pipeline, but all 4 contractors have recommended sand. However, contractor A specifically said he will install whatever I want.
I have read up on issues with the Jandy truclear, so I would maybe try for the aquapure if I went that route.

You might even consider 9' for the deepest part. I would suggest 4' for the shallow end.


Excellent pump. Whatever brand you choose, get a 2.7 or 3.0 hp pump.


I would recommend a large cartridge filter. The CCP520 is excellent.


What's the estimated volume of the pool? Get a SWCG rated for at least twice the pool volume.


I would go with 2 skimmers and no main drain.

I would recommend selecting the builder that listens to you and communicates. Don't choose a builder that cuts corners or performs work in the cheapest way.

I think we could go deeper, and they said they don't order the liner until after its dug incase we get into rocks etc. I will make a note for 4' shallow end!
Another recommendations for cartridge filter, interesting. I look more into it.
27,900 using the pentair calculator - Pool Volume Calculator

+1 for all the above.
I too would get rid of the drains in a vinyl pool. I would require 2 skimmers. Make sure that skimmer mouths face the prevailing winds, so winds push debris to the skimmers.

Look forward to build pics!

Both of you say no main drain, why is that? Are you referencing the dual drains at the bottom of the deep end? Is that common? I am assuming in-case of leaks.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

You should ask the builders for a list of references of pools they have recently built and then call or visit those references. If a builder refuses to give you reference checks, that’s a huge red flag.

 

[PoolStored]

Both of you say no main drain, why is that? Are you referencing the dual drains at the bottom of the deep end? Is that common? I am assuming in-case of leaks.

It’s not the drain that leaks, it’s the seal that holds the vinyl to the drain body, or the plumbing, or both. Any penetration in a vinyl liner needs to be properly sealed. The problem with the main drain is that it is the very bottom of the pool. So a leak there will pretty much empty the entire pool.

The only major benefit a main drain can afford is improving heater performance. Without a main drain to circulate water out of the hopper, you’ll have warm surface water and cold deep water. A decent robot or automatic vacuum can help with water distribution but an independently controlled main drain is best.

I would not put a main drain in if I have to build a liner pool. But that’s just my one opinion.

 

[ajw22]

An 8 foot deep hopper can benefit from a Main Drain. It helps in the water circulation in the hopper.

Sport pools with a maximum depth of 5 to 6 feet and no deep hopper don't benefit much from a Main Drain circulation.

 

[pjt]

Both of you say no main drain, why is that? Are you referencing the dual drains at the bottom of the deep end? Is that common? I am assuming in-case of leaks.

Deleting the main drain removes the possibility of a leak or entrapment. All of your suction would be used by the skimmers, which would maximize their performance. It adds simplicity and removes a potential point of failure. That said, it's optional. If you want one, get one.

 

[PoolStored]

An 8 foot deep hopper can benefit from a Main Drain. It helps in the water circulation in the hopper.

I'm in North East Ohio, much more north than the OP. Vinyl liner, heater, no main drain. I have a robot cleaner, which helps with circulation. I have noticed VERY little difference in pool water temperature (maybe a few degrees) when swimming, even when diving into the deep end. The amount of time you spend at 8' or 9' is minimal. I would not put main drains into a vinyl liner pool. Adds no real value, creates more work to winterize, and drainage risk. Again, that is one opinion.

 

[suzook]

Main drains are code in some states, so you might not be able to eliminate them. If installed properly your liner will need to be replaced before a leak develops at the main drain. Leaks almost always happen at the light. Don't concern yourself about that though, as cuts need to be done at skimmers, returns...and such. Speaking of skimmers, absolutely go with 2 on a 18x36. I would keep contactors A, and D in play, if they have good reputations. Throw out the rest. You also have nothing to lose trying to negotiate. Maybe one of the builders can throw automation into the mix at their quoted price to win the bid. Or maybe a heater. Good Luck! One last thing. Tests have been done with circulation and no main drain, and they seem to say there is no difference. I have NO IDEA how they came to this conclusion. With my main drains closed, and my heater on, there is a BIG difference in water temp on deep end from the waist down. Sure you can stir it up, but I actually like having them so I can leave them on when heating, and turn them off when not.

 

[setsailsoon]

91,

Welcome to TFP! And good job getting quotes that have a lot of comparable factors. I'd put this all into a spreadsheet so you can compare a little better. Also you should independently think through your selection criteria. Think about things like warranty, quality, price, schedule, relationship and VERY IMPORTANT - sample contract. Look at the contract and figure out how much risk is transferred to you, what the payment terms are, does it contain a provision for retaining $ until a performance test is run? This is a vitally important step that results in many of the problems owners face and most of the time it's skipped. It can easily be the most important thing to consider in your selection process. After you weigh your selection criteria, rate each proposal using the weighted criteria. It may surprise you that the most expensive bidder actually is giving you by far the most value... or not. You won't know until you complete this step.

I hope this is helpful and GOOD LUCK to you!

Chris

 

[91_two]

You should ask the builders for a list of references of pools they have recently built and then call or visit those references. If a builder refuses to give you reference checks, that’s a huge red flag.

Contractor A got recommended by someone who used them and said we could check out their pool. I have not specifically asked any of them yet for references or to check out a pool, but great idea.

It’s not the drain that leaks, it’s the seal that holds the vinyl to the drain body, or the plumbing, or both. Any penetration in a vinyl liner needs to be properly sealed. The problem with the main drain is that it is the very bottom of the pool. So a leak there will pretty much empty the entire pool.

The only major benefit a main drain can afford is improving heater performance. Without a main drain to circulate water out of the hopper, you’ll have warm surface water and cold deep water. A decent robot or automatic vacuum can help with water distribution but an independently controlled main drain is best.

I would not put a main drain in if I have to build a liner pool. But that’s just my one opinion.

Thank you for the opinion, I will do more research and ask the thoughts of the builder. I am undecided one way or another currently.

An 8 foot deep hopper can benefit from a Main Drain. It helps in the water circulation in the hopper.

Sport pools with a maximum depth of 5 to 6 feet and no deep hopper don't benefit much from a Main Drain circulation.

I have also read for the cleaning ability it may help suck up any debris on the bottom. I will have a robot and a skimmer bot and do not have many trees close by, but I am not sure one way or another currently.

Deleting the main drain removes the possibility of a leak or entrapment. All of your suction would be used by the skimmers, which would maximize their performance. It adds simplicity and removes a potential point of failure. That said, it's optional. If you want one, get one.

Understood. Removing any failure points is always a plus in my book! Like noted above I will do more research and ask the builders their thoughts.

Main drains are code in some states, so you might not be able to eliminate them. If installed properly your liner will need to be replaced before a leak develops at the main drain. Leaks almost always happen at the light. Don't concern yourself about that though, as cuts need to be done at skimmers, returns...and such. Speaking of skimmers, absolutely go with 2 on a 18x36. I would keep contactors A, and D in play, if they have good reputations. Throw out the rest. You also have nothing to lose trying to negotiate. Maybe one of the builders can throw automation into the mix at their quoted price to win the bid. Or maybe a heater. Good Luck! One last thing. Tests have been done with circulation and no main drain, and they seem to say there is no difference. I have NO IDEA how they came to this conclusion. With my main drains closed, and my heater on, there is a BIG difference in water temp on deep end from the waist down. Sure you can stir it up, but I actually like having them so I can leave them on when heating, and turn them off when not.

Yes, thinking of all the potential leak points in the pool it is just another two, but at the very bottom! Contractor A is the one we are leaning towards currently, and have been from the start. I will ask them about automation.

91,

Welcome to TFP! And good job getting quotes that have a lot of comparable factors. I'd put this all into a spreadsheet so you can compare a little better. Also you should independently think through your selection criteria. Think about things like warranty, quality, price, schedule, relationship and VERY IMPORTANT - sample contract. Look at the contract and figure out how much risk is transferred to you, what the payment terms are, does it contain a provision for retaining $ until a performance test is run? This is a vitally important step that results in many of the problems owners face and most of the time it's skipped. It can easily be the most important thing to consider in your selection process. After you weigh your selection criteria, rate each proposal using the weighted criteria. It may surprise you that the most expensive bidder actually is giving you by far the most value... or not. You won't know until you complete this step.

I hope this is helpful and GOOD LUCK to you!

Chris

Thank you, lots of research here and online has led me to specific questions to ask, so I thought I at least had a good reference point to start the process. I do need to better identify warranties, that is a good call out. I currently have a google doc with tons of information, questions I have asked all builders, as well as timelines for their responses etc. I also need to confirm payment plans with these various contractors, good point.

 

[pjt]

I have also read for the cleaning ability it may help suck up any debris on the bottom. I will have a robot and a skimmer bot and do not have many trees close by, but I am not sure one way or another currently.

Main drains do little to nothing in terms of capturing debris. The robot will take care of anything not captured by the skimmers.

Unless there are local requirements, main drains are not needed. However, if they are installed, they obviously need to be VGBA/code compliant. I would read the actual text of the applicable regulation.

 

[setsailsoon]

Contractor A got recommended by someone who used them and said we could check out their pool. I have not specifically asked any of them yet for references or to check out a pool, but great idea.


Thank you for the opinion, I will do more research and ask the thoughts of the builder. I am undecided one way or another currently.


I have also read for the cleaning ability it may help suck up any debris on the bottom. I will have a robot and a skimmer bot and do not have many trees close by, but I am not sure one way or another currently.


Understood. Removing any failure points is always a plus in my book! Like noted above I will do more research and ask the builders their thoughts.


Yes, thinking of all the potential leak points in the pool it is just another two, but at the very bottom! Contractor A is the one we are leaning towards currently, and have been from the start. I will ask them about automation.


Thank you, lots of research here and online has led me to specific questions to ask, so I thought I at least had a good reference point to start the process. I do need to better identify warranties, that is a good call out. I currently have a google doc with tons of information, questions I have asked all builders, as well as timelines for their responses etc. I also need to confirm payment plans with these various contractors, good point.

And don't forget to ask each one for a sample contract. Every single contract except one that I've seen on here needs changes and all the good builders readily change them because the changes are needed to simply make it a fair deal. Not way unfair to the buyer like most of them are. It makes a lot of sense they're done that way. The lawyer that drew it up was paid by the builder and almost nobody even reads it... till it's too late!

I hope this helps.

Chris

 

[91_two]

Edited original post: We are doing wedding cake style stairs now and a bench/step-out across the full wall in the deep end. I saw these examples from searching this site, and really like how these would be for our pool/yard.

We need to move one septic line, and as I was gathering quotes, one of the contractors recommended another pool vendor who is installing his pool now. I have since reached out to this Contractor E and meet with them this weekend. I am not sure on pricing or any equipment etc yet.

I have it currently narrowed down to Contractor A and D, but will wait to feel out Contractor E and their offerings. This is one of the bigger builders in the area while the others are a bit smaller from my initial research.

Contractor A Updates

• Adjusted the initial design for wedding cake steps and deep end bench. Slight up charge, but that is fine with me
• Asked about the current quote having the IC40 salt system or upgrading to the IC60. They said the IC40 for my pool is what they would recommend, as it is within the pool size range of 25-30k gallons, and the IC60 would burn out sooner?
• They go with 42" wall panels
• I asked about automation, and he said they can certainly do it if we want. He said his pool has it, but obviously, another expense. They stated we can always add it down the road if we want, and the decision is just up to me. He said its around $6,500, but didn't go into detail

Contractor D Updates

• They came out to measure for pool placement and chat in-person
• They go with 42" wall panels
• Salt system is AquaPlus, but can go with a different system if we want. I think newer is omni?
• I can add automation, but it also changes the salt system to the new S3 Omni stuff and that also changes the salt system. They said the price difference isn't that much more

 

[ajw22]

Edited original post: We are doing wedding cake style stairs now and a bench/step-out across the full wall in the deep end. I saw these examples from searching this site, and really like how these would be for our pool/yard.

We need to move one septic line, and as I was gathering quotes, one of the contractors recommended another pool vendor who is installing his pool now. I have since reached out to this Contractor E and meet with them this weekend. I am not sure on pricing or any equipment etc yet.

I have it currently narrowed down to Contractor A and D, but will wait to feel out Contractor E and their offerings. This is one of the bigger builders in the area while the others are a bit smaller from my initial research.

Contractor A Updates

• Asked about the current quote having the IC40 salt system or upgrading to the IC60. They said the IC40 for my pool is what they would recommend, as it is within the pool size range of 25-30k gallons, and the IC60 would burn out sooner?

That is a fail and two demerits.

They appear to know nothing about the sizing of a SWG cell or how it works. Many pool builders know how to dig holes in the ground but know little about how the pool equipment they sell. operates.

The cell should be around 2X your pool volume. Read SWG How It Works - Further Reading

• I asked about automation, and he said they can certainly do it if we want. He said his pool has it, but obviously, another expense. They stated we can always add it down the road if we want, and the decision is just up to me. He said its around $6,500, but didn't go into detail

Pool builders tend not to net out the electrical installation they would do anyway when they give you a cost for automation.

You need to make automation compatible equipment choices or you will limit what you can do with automation without additional cost.

Again, Pool Builders often do not understand the equipment, automation, and compatibility.

Contractor D Updates

• Salt system is AquaPlus, but can go with a different system if we want. I think newer is omni?
• I can add automation, but it also changes the salt system to the new S3 Omni stuff and that also changes the salt system. They said the price difference isn't that much more

Aquaplus is the older Prologic automation.

Get the S3 Omni or OmniPL.

Hayward Automation Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[91_two]

Thanks for the links. I will look into that more. From my light reading that is the conclusion I came to, and why I asked about the IC60. As long as you can meet the minimum flow requirements it seems like there is no issue with upsizing the SWG.

Contractor D got back and said they use a 1HP single speed pump. I told them I do not want that and want a VS pump. Waiting to hear back.

 

[suzook]

Thanks for the links. I will look into that more. From my light reading that is the conclusion I came to, and why I asked about the IC60. As long as you can meet the minimum flow requirements it seems like there is no issue with upsizing the SWG.

Contractor D got back and said they use a 1HP single speed pump. I told them I do not want that and want a VS pump. Waiting to hear back.

Using an ic60 will not burn out quicker. That's the most idiotic statement I have ever heard. BUT, on that note, an IC40 is rated for 40K gallons, you pool is around 27k gallons, so the IC40 is definitely capable. Sure bigger is better, but the IC40 will do just fine for your pool. Also, any pool builder using a single speed pump these days should be hung. I would throw him out of the mix.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I would be careful upsizing an SWG. The recent crop of them have had shorter than expected lifetimes and so the ROI isn’t as good. Sure, they have higher output and so you run them less which theoretically translates into a better ROI …. IF, and it’s a big IF, the unit ACTUALLY lasts for 10,000 hours. There are definitely failure modes that can kill the SWGs much sooner than that and usually just outside the 2-3 year warranty period which then completely tanks the ROI.

I would say that 2X the volume is a ceiling more than a floor and would rather pay less up front in the chance that you get a shorter than expected lifetime. If you take the plunge on the larger unit, you’re buying a whole lot of “theoretical chlorine” that may never materialize into “actual chlorine” ….

In short, an IC40 is fine … my first cell was an IC40 and it went the distance and lasted almost 8 years. My replacement IC60 is dying and only lasted 3 years.