High-Head pumps that speak intelliflo?

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Qwijib0

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Dec 5, 2016
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Tucson, AZ
Pool Size
21500
Surface
Plaster
Chlorine
Salt Water Generator
SWG Type
Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
I'm finally getting around to adding the "fun" bits of my pool-- and one of the things I wanted to do is have the ability to hook up a garden hose into a PVC contraption so that my kids could have a "build a fountain" playkit on the sun shelf. I had extra threaded returns on a separate pipe from the pad added for this purpose, but now that I'm trying to set it up, I am realizing that the intelliflo just doesn't have enough head to get water 30' through a garden hose at a rate that is useful.

What I think I need is essentially a booster pump for a pressure side cleaner-- the oft quoted up to 50psi at ~15GPM feels very much like the low end of house water pressure and that seems to get through hoses just fine. Pentair doesn't seem to make an 'intelligent' booster though. I'd like to be able to dial in just the right amount of flow using screenlogic for the thing I'm doing so I'm not just running a 1HP pump and then restricting flow somehow with a valve or pressure relief assembly. Are any of the intelli* pumps higher head, or is this a fool's errand?
 
Qwijib0 said:
I'm finally getting around to adding the "fun" bits of my pool-- and one of the things I wanted to do is have the ability to hook up a garden hose into a PVC contraption so that my kids could have a "build a fountain" playkit on the sun shelf. I had extra threaded returns on a separate pipe from the pad added for this purpose, but now that I'm trying to set it up, I am realizing that the intelliflo just doesn't have enough head to get water 30' through a garden hose at a rate that is useful.
Click to expand...

So let me see if I understand the setup. Pump to single pipe return (size?) then connect hose to return outlet in pool, 30' of hose, then fountain at end of hose?

Can you isolate the pump with just that one return line?

The hose will have a lot of head loss with a little bit of flow. Even at 15 GPM, the head loss will be about 55' of head. So a lot of pressure loss.

The best setup is if you can keep pipe size as large as possible for as long as possible with as little hose as possible.
 
Appreciate any insight and the quick reply already.

Yes, I've got 2" PVC from the pad that I can isolate to be the only return with valves to the pool wall return which is a 1.5" threaded, then a series of fittings to reduce that to garden hose thread. I bought hose that is 3/4" ID, and at full pump speed, water shoots out of that at a reasonable rate and the flowvis says I'm still doing ~20GPM but once I attach the the fountain apparatus which is a square of 3/4" PVC with 3-way tees at the corners, I get a trickle from the 4 openings, and if I put a 1' length of pipe in any of them, the water can't make it out the top. Filter pressure tops out at ~30PSI in this mode, in normal operation through the regular returns it's about 15PSI. If I drop the pump speed, the pressure drops but the fountain flow appears to be the same. Here is a bad MSPAINT. I had thought about trying to run 1.5" hose from the wall all the way to the fountain but I couldn't find a hose that didn't look unweildy, and at that size I'm sure it all will be.
 

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If you are getting only 20 GPM out of the pump without the fountain @3450 RPM, the pump is running at about 94' of head. But your filter pressure should be at about 40 PSI with that head level. What does the pump say the flow rate is?

How did you measure flow rate?

Does the filter gauge go to zero when the pump shuts off?

Assuming the flow rate of 20 GPM and head loss of 94' are correct, the 4 x 3/4" jets would have a fountain height of about 3" which is not very high. Reducing the jet orifice to 3/8" would increase the fountain height to 3.5'. Note these estimates make a lot of assumptions which may or may not be true. But in general, reducing the exit orifice makes the fountain higher.
 
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I trust math more than I trust my memory, so I will go verify the numbers I have provided since something clearly does not add up :D

The filter pressure is at 0 when off, I measure flow with a flowvis check valve between the pump and filter.
 
My goal, I think, is excess head. I'd like to be able to have them construct a PVC contraption 3-4 feet high and still get some bubbling out the top, or if they put a 90 on it, a little waterfall. Basically the home version of this thing found at children's museums.
 

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@JamesW @mas985 hopefully these photos help, and I noticed something while taking them whole that should fix the math and allow you all to help me solve this problem.

Picture of the pad showing water flow-- it's all 2".

Picture of the apparatus, and the wall connector, which is a Polaris universal twist lock thing, with a pressure relief valve that I thought was going to be at 40-50psi since that is what the boosters for their cleaners claim to hit.

This leads me to picture 3, which is the flow/pressure at "medium" and "high"-- high apparently not actually being max speed. I can't remember why I dropped it down-- and regardless, at this speed, the PRV in the Polaris valve is dumping a bunch of water, so clearly it's a 30psi PRV, explaining why thats where the filter is topping out. Is it possible to know how much extra head over 30psi I need to get 3ish feet of head out of the contraption? Ideally I would like a PRV on this thing in case I or a kid does something dumb so I don't dead head it, so knowing that value would be great.

Once again, many thanks.
 

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Note that you won't see water coming out of the higher pipe if you don't have all four of the risers installed. Water will take the path of least resistance.

As for the filter pressure, that makes much more sense given the RPM. At that RPM, the model I am using predicts 29.4 PSI which is pretty close to what you are seeing.

But you might want to run at full speed and see what the pressure rises to (should be around 39 PSI). It will make the modeling easier as well.
 
You could use a length of 1", 1.25" or 1.5" flex pvc instead of the garden hose depending on the flow rate that you want..

You can unscrew the Polaris wall fitting and screw in a 1.5" male threaded adaptor.

This will allow you to provide as much flow as you want.

You have to be careful not to create a situation where a blocked pipe could build enough pressure to allow something to come apart with any significant force.

Unless it is very carefully designed and supervised, this is likely to be too dangerous to do as a play apparatus.

Overall, I would recommend against doing this as it can create a situation where a PVC fitting could be ejected with enough force to injure someone.
 
I think the careful design is what I'm after here, I will take off the Polaris adaptor and put on a 1.5-ght adapter I had also made up for testing purposes and ramp up the speed slowly to see what the flow/pressure looks like as I get closer to 40 psi.
Is it the case that if I made the base manifold out of 1.5" with the final reduction to 3/4 or 1/2 out of those 3-way corner tees and used a 1.5" hose from the wall that I could get a lot more flow at lower pressure since the restriction is as the very end? Can you buy "very flexible" 1.5" hose or would I be dealing with something pretty rigid even if it is "flexible"? What about some dumb manifold that uses two hoses for double the flow?
Regardless, I'll do the tests without the PRV at higher speed.

thanks again!
 
You can get something like vinyl tubing and cut it to length.

Make sure that you don't create a situation where any pressure can build up in the PVC.

For example, if someone pushed a PVC cap on a pipe and even a few psi built up and popped the cap off, it could come off with enough force to injure someone.


Even with careful design and supervision, it is difficult to make something that is really safe.

Overall, I would recommend against doing a pressurized apparatus.
 
Qwijib0 said:
ramp up the speed slowly to see what the flow/pressure looks like as I get closer to 40 psi.
Click to expand...
You should not be thinking about 40 psi.

If the tubing is big enough, the pressure should be very low.

You should be able to do this at or below 5 psi.

The base can be 1.5" PVC.


 
If you have 2" pvc from the equipment pad to the wall and then 1.5" Vinyl tubing from the wall to the setup, the pressure should be very low and the flow should be good.

With 5 psi pushing into the returns, you should get about 36 gpm.

If we assume that the return is 100 feet of 1.5" pipe, here is the approximate flow vs pressure on the pump performance curve.

1625525541708.png
 
Qwijib0 said:
I think the careful design is what I'm after here, I will take off the Polaris adaptor and put on a 1.5-ght adapter I had also made up for testing purposes and ramp up the speed slowly to see what the flow/pressure looks like as I get closer to 40 psi.
Is it the case that if I made the base manifold out of 1.5" with the final reduction to 3/4 or 1/2 out of those 3-way corner tees and used a 1.5" hose from the wall that I could get a lot more flow at lower pressure since the restriction is as the very end? Can you buy "very flexible" 1.5" hose or would I be dealing with something pretty rigid even if it is "flexible"? What about some dumb manifold that uses two hoses for double the flow?
Regardless, I'll do the tests without the PRV at higher speed.

thanks again!
Click to expand...
What flow rate are you looking for? Currently, based on your picture, you are getting over 20 GPM. My model predicts about 23 GPM or a little over 5 GPM per riser. Again, you must have all four risers connected if you want water to travel out of the tops.

Assuming 30' for the tubing, and the same 3/4" quad riser, 3020 RPM, here are the filter pressures and flow rates for various sizes of the tubing from the connection port to the quad riser:

3/4" Tubing - 29.4 PSI @ 23 GPM, 5.7 GPM/Riser
1" Tubing - 28.8 PSI @ 38 GPM, 9.5 GPM/Riser
1.25" Tubing - 28.2 PSI @ 48 GPM, 12 GPM/Riser
1.5" Tubing - 27.8 PSI @ 53 GPM, 13.2 GPM/Riser

BTW, is the hose 30' or is the distance from the outlet to the quad riser 30'? Can you make the tubing shorter? That would help quite a bit. Even 3/4" tubing 15' long, would increase the flow rate to 6.9 GPM/riser.
 
The hose could be shorter, I can do that as well, but I think getting 1.5" to the contraption and using 1.5 or 2" as the base is the right decision
 
If we estimate the filter at y=0.0005X^2
The return 2" to the wall at Y=0.000364X^2
The 1.5" vinyl tubing at Y=0.00127X^2 and the heater at 3 psi
The equation for the curve from before the filter to the apparatus will be approximately Y=0.002134X^2 + 3 where the Y axis is the pressure in psi and the x-axis is the flow in gpm.

So, you can see the expected flow at each psi at the filter.

For example, to get 40 gpm, you would need about 6.4 psi at the filter.

y=0.002134X^2 + 3, X from 0 to 60 - Wolfram|Alpha

Wolfram|Alpha brings expert-level knowledge and capabilities to the broadest possible range of people—spanning all professions and education levels.
www.wolframalpha.com www.wolframalpha.com
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