Help with Quad DE

[tim5055]

Grr, okay. Which of the two kits would you suggest? I'll pick one up I guess.

While I wait for the kit, any advice for acid cleaning my filter cartridges and shocking the pool? Should I use the SLAM? Will I have enough time before the July 4 party?

You want the TF-100 and the XL option. You really can't start the slam without it. The kit you have doesn't test high enough.

Until you get one you can do a massive water exchange as your CYA is 100+. If it were only 100 then you would need to replace 2/3 of the water to get to a reasonable place to start a SLAM Process

You are lucky, tftestkits.net is based in Raleigh. You may be able to call in the AM and get a kit tomorrow.

 

[Redshift]

You want the TF-100 and the XL option. You really can't start the slam without it. The kit you have doesn't test high enough.

Until you get one you can do a massive water exchange as your CYA is 100+. If it were only 100 then you would need to replace 2/3 of the water to get to a reasonable place to start a SLAM Process

You are lucky, tftestkits.net is based in Raleigh. You may be able to call in the AM and get a kit tomorrow.

Thanks, Tim. I will call first thing in the morning. Maybe with all of your help I will actually figure out how to get my pool more stable so I don't have constantly changing TA and pH (or at least less frequent). I just found all the pool school stuff so I'll read all I can tonight.

Do you think I should really just drain like half or 2/3 of the water and start with fresh city water? Last I checked even a full fill was only $150-170. Chemicals can actually cost more than that. Wouldn't I need to first clean my DE cartridges? I still haven't found the proper method for the Quad DE cleaning.

 

[JamesW]

In addition to the other things, I would suggest that you avoid running full speed. No need and it's really overpowered for your system.

Having 50 people in the pool who slather on sunscreen and jump in the pool is going to load the filter. You're going to probably have to clean it after the party.

That's just the cost of having that many people using the pool.

There's a lot of cost and cleanup related to being the host of a big party.

 

[tim5055]

If I read you post correctly, you CYA is already at atmospheric levels. It is near impossible to maintain a pool in the long term that way. Pls, if you do need to SLAM Processnyou shock level,is going to be extremely high.

So yes, you want the CYA in a reasonable level to take control.

 

[Redshift]

In addition to the other things, I would suggest that you avoid running full speed. No need and it's really overpowered for your system.

Having 50 people in the pool who slather on sunscreen and jump in the pool is going to load the filter. You're going to probably have to clean it after the party.

That's just the cost of having that many people using the pool.

There's a lot of cost and cleanup related to being the host of a big party.

I'm not disputing any of this. But I feel like something is out of control and so far the posts here are helping me understand more than I have ever known about before such as the relationship between CYA and FC (new to me) and other stuff.

I think you may have mis-read something above about the pump speed. I only run the pump full speed when I'm testing right after I clean the filter. Daily run rate is at 3000 rpm or lower (only have it that high now because of constantly clogging filter but if I can solve that with an acid wash and re-balance of chemicals I'd like to set it way lower).

I would never run the pump any faster than necessary. I have solar panels (for power - separate from the pool heater panels) and pay higher rates during the day than at night so I want to keep my electrical loads down as far as I can during the day and with two AC systems running along with the pool pump, any reduction in pump speed saves me money.

If I read you post correctly, you CYA is already at atmospheric levels. It is near impossible to maintain a pool in the long term that way. Pls, if you do need to SLAM Processnyou shock level,is going to be extremely high.

So yes, you want the CYA in a reasonable level to take control.

Yes, that's correct. I will consider a drain after the party. For the time being I think I will just go ahead with a new test kit and maybe a SLAM or at least a very quick bleach/shock to clarify the water along with acid washing the filter and loading with a little DE before the party so it looks good.

 

[JamesW]

Certainly better chemistry maintenance will make a huge difference.

That being said, it's important to understand that very high use has special considerations that have to be addressed.

DE filters are very good at cleaning the water, but if you introduce a lot of oils, lotions bather waste etc. they can easily clog a filter.

If you're going to be having that type of bather load on a regular basis, you might want to consider getting a big commercial sand filter or maybe a big cartridge filter to put in parallel to help clean the water.

Maybe install an outdoor shower so that people can rinse off before jumping in the pool.

Having an accessible bathroom is also important to minimizing bather waste in the pool.

 

[Redshift]

Certainly better chemistry maintenance will make a huge difference.

That being said, it's important to understand that very high use has special considerations that have to be addressed.

DE filters are very good at cleaning the water, but if you introduce a lot of oils, lotions bather waste etc. they can easily clog a filter.

If you're going to be having that type of bather load on a regular basis, you might want to consider getting a big commercial sand filter or maybe a big cartridge filter to put in parallel to help clean the water.

Maybe install an outdoor shower so that people can rinse off before jumping in the pool.

Having an accessible bathroom is also important to minimizing bather waste in the pool.

Fair point indeed, and I don't mind cleaning after a party. But when the others said "that shouldn't be happening" I figured I had a problem other than high bather load so that's why we're going down this road that most of you are probably sick of hearing about but is new to me and I'm greatly appreciative of all the help and ideas and support. I'll definitely be making a site donation to "pay it back".

We only have big parties 3x/yr and I don't mind pulling the filters apart and cleaning them. I have it down to 20min or so - not a big deal especially when I now have spare cartridges. Once I acid clean and get the chemistry right I should be good (hopefully) and am hoping the pH becomes more stable.

 

[Redshift]

Picked up the TF-100 XL today right from the source! Great folks. Super helpful.

Re-ran all the tests and got more accurate results - some of which are fairly pleasing! Here we go:

FC 6.5
CC 0.0
pH (using the Taylor kit as the TF-100 doesn't have it) 7.8
CH 300
TA 90
CYA 75

So the CYA is a bit high but not 100+ like I had thought before. My reagents on the old kit were a bit old so maybe that is part of it. The TF-100 kit is easier to get a more accurate result for CYA also so maybe that is part of it too.

So, given these newer results do you think I need to do the OCLT or not? And should I still drain say 1/3 of the pool to get the CYA down to 50?

We did have some rain today so these results are fairly pleasing considering!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Yes. Still perform the OCLT. Good results don't mean there isn't an issue. An OCLT will tell you definitively if there's something growing in your water.

 

[xyz]

Fair point indeed, and I don't mind cleaning after a party. But when the others said "that shouldn't be happening" I figured I had a problem other than high bather load so that's why we're going down this road that most of you are probably sick of hearing about but is new to me and I'm greatly appreciative of all the help and ideas and support. I'll definitely be making a site donation to "pay it back".

We only have big parties 3x/yr and I don't mind pulling the filters apart and cleaning them. I have it down to 20min or so - not a big deal especially when I now have spare cartridges. Once I acid clean and get the chemistry right I should be good (hopefully) and am hoping the pH becomes more stable.

I have a quad DE And lots of use and lots of organic matter constantly in pool. In 9 months pressure increased less than 10%. When I went to clean it, it really didn't need it. I'd think I could go a year between cleaning.

So,let say his load was double or even triple my load. That would equate to a 10% increase in 4 months. Not 25% in days.
Something else is happening here. I don't see the need to change out your filter just yet.

I'd suggest you Get your our water clean and clear and Then that quad will keep,it so crystal you may think someone stole your water sometimes.

Also, sounds like you are getting there. Or getting close.

About the pump RPM, Im suggesting you do you baseline and then delta oressure measurement at 2000 rpm. Then other factors will not skew the test.

So so let's say you are at 8 PSI at 2000, then it would be time to clean the filter when it gets to 10.

 

[Redshift]

I have a quad DE And lots of use and lots of organic matter constantly in pool. In 9 months pressure increased less than 10%. When I went to clean it, it really didn't need it. I'd think I could go a year between cleaning.

So,let say his load was double or even triple my load. That would equate to a 10% increase in 4 months. Not 25% in days.
Something else is happening here. I don't see the need to change out your filter just yet.

I'd suggest you Get your our water clean and clear and Then that quad will keep,it so crystal you may think someone stole your water sometimes.

Also, sounds like you are getting there. Or getting close.

About the pump RPM, Im suggesting you do you baseline and then delta oressure measurement at 2000 rpm. Then other factors will not skew the test.

So so let's say you are at 8 PSI at 2000, then it would be time to clean the filter when it gets to 10.

My pool builder claims my filter is oversize for my pool.

If I had your situation I would be as happy as a lark.

My plan for now is:

1) Run OCLT and report back
2) Buy giant trash can and acid wash filter cartridges using procedure found in owners manual
3) Change filters out and add proper amount of DE (once we have OCLT and I know what to do about it)
4) see what happens?

I will also do what you suggest about the pressure measurement at a lower RPM. Good idea. I have had that crystal clear, "where did the water go" until very recently so I know what that is like and that is exactly how I want my water to be!

- - - Updated - - -

Yes. Still perform the OCLT. Good results don't mean there isn't an issue. An OCLT will tell you definitively if there's something growing in your water.

Will do. All week I've been waiting to "sleep in" but just for you, Matt, I will get up at the bum-crack of dawn tomorrow

No but seriously, I will do this tonight and report back. Looking forward to results. Thank you and Jon and everyone else for helping. I greatly appreciate it.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Do not acid wash the cartridges if you suspect they are loaded with organics. Acid + organics = a sticky hardened mess. The cartridges need to be cleaned in TSP (trisodium phosphate) first to remove oils. If that's not available then automatic dishwasher detergent (i.e., NOT dish soap) will work too. After they are free of organics, then you can acid wash them if they feel "crusty" or "crunchy".


As for the "bum-crack of dawn", welcome to my world. With three little boys and a baby, I'm lucky if I get to sleep past 5am....

 

[Redshift]

Do not acid wash the cartridges if you suspect they are loaded with organics. Acid + organics = a sticky hardened mess. The cartridges need to be cleaned in TSP (trisodium phosphate) first to remove oils. If that's not available then automatic dishwasher detergent (i.e., NOT dish soap) will work too. After they are free of organics, then you can acid wash them if they feel "crusty" or "crunchy".


As for the "bum-crack of dawn", welcome to my world. With three little boys and a baby, I'm lucky if I get to sleep past 5am....

FOUR kids. Wow. I only have the one. That's enough!

So, for TSP, where would I find that locally and what ratio to mix it in? Giant garbage can method? How long to soak, etc?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

TSP = trisodium phosphate.

It can sometimes be found in the paint section of hardware stores BUT because it's phosphate based there are all these "ecofriendly" non-phosphate based "TSP's" that call themselves TSP but are not.

The box has the application rate but it's typically not more than 1/4 cup per gallon of water. DO NOT get it near anything aluminum.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Red,

I believe that you problem is algae, but have a faint memory of someone with your filter that had the wrong P/N for their multiport valve. They also were have weird filter issues.

It would be worth a look to confirm what P/N your multiport is, and then double check it is the one that is recommended for your filter...

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Redshift]

TSP I will try to find some. Should I just soak them in a giant garbage can (new/clean of course)?

9:30pm, FC measurement 6.5ppm

Stay tuned for 5:50am measurement

Jim, could be algae. I need to clean those filters I think (running without DE on both sets is not good apparently). I do have tiny blooms of algae on my tanning shelf (1mm or so - nothing major) but it's in there.

I can look at the multiport valve tomorrow and report back. I'm confident its correct but who knows.

 

[Redshift]

5:50am, FC measurement 5.5ppm

What next?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

5:50am, FC measurement 5.5ppm

What next?

A 1ppm overnight loss is right at the cutoff of where TFP says you have a problem. Since you do get algae in your pool, I would say that you need to perform a SLAM.

Go read the SLAM article in Pool School. The instructions are all there.

 

[Redshift]

A 1ppm overnight loss is right at the cutoff of where TFP says you have a problem. Since you do get algae in your pool, I would say that you need to perform a SLAM.

Go read the SLAM article in Pool School. The instructions are all there.

I can SLAM but given I have a party Tuesday should I wait til after that? I don't want the FC level to be 30ppm when my guests arrive.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

I can SLAM but given I have a party Tuesday should I wait til after that? I don't want the FC level to be 30ppm when my guests arrive.

Up to you. Perfectly safe to swim in water up to SLAM levels. It may be a short SLAM given you current water clarity.