Help with equipment design for new 50k gallon pool

[JasonO]

Hi Everyone. If you had a chance to do it all over again, knowing what you know now, how would you do it?

We are very close to starting our pool build, as part of a major landscape project. Our builder has been awesome so far on the design side. I have been noodling on my dream pool for a decade, and had a lot of expectations. Our designer patiently worked through all my questions, design changes, and wacky ideas (I’m putting a dock in my pool). I have zero complaints thus far. But now he has spec’d out our sanitation system, and it doesn’t work for me.

I’ve lurked on TFP for a very long time, and learned a lot, but not enough to tell my designer exactly what to use. Its obvious pool maintenance isn’t their strong point. That’s okay, because his design skills are his strength and have been well used. I just need to take the lead on sanitation and specify what I want, but I am uncertain about what that should be.

Hopefully the TFP community can share their wisdom on this or any other design considerations?

Here is one of the early concept images


Specs:
Our pool will be an in ground, free form, lagoon style pool, about 60’ long by roughly 20’ wide. Yes, its good size. Around 50,000 gallons, 1225 surface sf for the pool, and another 50sf for the spa. My back yard will be my family’s own private resort. And probably for half the neighborhood kids. That’s okay, we love parties!

Finish is plaster with Pebble Plus Beach Series finish. Materials are waterline tile, natural stone coping (material yet undecided), various boulders, and two medium size waterfalls made of sierra granite boulders. The waterfalls will have their own pump, and will run many hours per day. We have some light freeway noise where we are, so running the waterfalls as white noise is a key element of the yard for us.

Spa is all tile, raised, circular overflow style. My wife fell in love with one she saw pictured below - it’s not negotiable.
Wife's spa:


We live in N. California, and the pool will have full sun exposure. We have oaks, pecan, and redwood trees near the pool. Due to the shape/size, it will not have a cover.

We are installing about 800 sf of Heliocol solar panels, and Hayward 400k Lo/Nox nat gas heater. The solar is south facing, and though slightly undersized, we are limited by the available roof area. Its generally pretty hot here, with warm nights, and we hope to have the pool usable about 8 months of the year without having to use the gas heater too much (except for the spa).
We’ll use the spa year round.

Here is our final plan, as we are about to build:


Here are the specs our builder has called out:
Basic Filter:700sqft HWD Cartridge
Basic Pump:EcoStar 2.7 hp Variable Sp (7 Yr Warranty)
Heater:HWD 400K Lo/Nox NG (5 Yr Warranty)
CleanerOL 280 with Pump
Sanitization: HydroRite UVo3
Chlorinator: Rainbow #320 Inline
Pool RXWater Purifier
Elec Eqp: OmniLogic 4 Base HLBASE
(3) Skimmers On Pool
(5) of #4 1/2in Steel Rebar In Bond Beam
3 in Suction & Return To Pool w (5) Returns Inlets
Dual Drains In Pool & Spa

I asked to upsize all PVC pool and fountain plumbing to 3 inch

Now to all my questions. Sorry, long and rambling post follows...

My builder is pro Hayward, which is fine, I think?
The pump and filter seem okay to me, but I’m not super knowledgeable.

The sanitation program provided is a no-go. I’m going to nix the UV/Ozone unit and the tab feeder.
I assume the water purifier is also unnecessary?

So here is where I am really lost. What is the right sanitation solution?

About me:
I’m technically oriented, and don’t mind spending lots of time and energy getting the pool set up right. But I also get very busy with work, and travel a fair amount. Additionally, I have two young children, and while some days I’m happy to fool around with the pool, on other days when I have limited hours, I prefer to just to swim and play, and make the most of my family time.

I am willing to put in the hours, but they may not be as regular as they are for some. I’d like to spend the time setting up a good system, and test and keep notes, so that I can automate to some degree. I’d like a pool that doesn’t crash if I have to travel for a couple of weeks.

I’d also really like full digital package, so I can use my phone/tablet to make changes to at least most of the controls. I’ll already be using it to turn on the spa, fountains, and lights, adjust the solar, etc. I’d like to be able to adjust the sanitation this way as well. Hayward seems strong in this regard, is that correct?

Choices:
A SWG seems like the right choice to me. Yes? But how big? The Hayward units I looked at handle up to 40,000 gallons. That’s very undersized! The Saline C 6.0 handles up to 125,000 gallons, but boy that one is expensive! Is it a lot more complicated? More maintenance? Worth the cost?

I have PV solar, solar for the pool, and a variable speed pump, so I figure I will be running my pool pump at least 12 hours a day during the warm months to cycle 50k gallons. That should help with the load on a SWG right?

I think my builder is resistant to SWG because of the natural stone, but that isn’t as big an issue as most people think it is, right? As long as I don’t use flagstone or another very soft stone? How about with the granite waterfalls? It seems the consensus on this site is that it is a manageable situation.

With the waterfalls and 100% overflow spa, I will have a lot of aeration- will I have PH issues? Lots of acid adjustments? If I can keep the TA under control, it should settle a bit right? If I continue to have issues, maybe borates are something to explore? Is this something I plan for, or just wait and see how it plays out?

I’ve read extensively about the inline injection, via the Stenner pumps, and that sounds really attractive. I love the idea of the incremental dosing, and the flexibility to change quantities as needs change. The major issue here, is the quantity of liquid chlorine I will need for a pool of this size. That’s a lot of liquid to haul, and I’d need a real big tank to travel for an extended period. I’m just not willing to haul 30-40 bottles of bleach a month.

What about running two systems? Such as an AquaRite Pro SWG and a direct injection pump? Conceptually, could I treat it like two 25,000 gallon pools? The SWG can handle 25k gallons worth, and I could set up the Stenner to handle the other half of the load. Is that feasible?

It would take more effort to get the two systems working in concert with each other, but once set up, they could each shoulder part of the load. Perhaps I can just let the SWG do its thing, and adjust the Stenner based on changes in need? This would significantly reduce the amount of liquid chlorine I need to transport, and add a little redundancy to boot? If one system failed while I was away, it wouldn’t be a total disaster. Maybe I can get the 12% chlorine in the 5 gallon jugs to simplify my life.

Should I consider keeping the tablet feeder? I know tablet only systems are a very bad idea, but what about augmenting a SWG with some tablets and just keep a real close eye on the CYA? If it starts climbing I can quit the tablets and add another SWG or Stenner pump?

My tap water CH is only 30ppm, so I could probably use Cal-Hypo to augment the SWG, but I don’t think I’ve seen any auto feed systems for that media.

Water is very dear in these parts, so dumping and refilling is really not a viable long-term strategy.

I’m very fortunate that I found TFP before I put in the pool. I have the chance to do it right the first time. But through all my searches, I have yet to find a solution that I am sure of. This is a huge financial commitment for us, so I just want to be sure I am doing it right.

I’d love to hear what you folks would do if it was your pool!

If you made it this far, thank you, and please feel free to offer your opinion on any of the items listed.

Thank you all!
Jason

 

[Jimrahbe]

Jason,

Welcome to TFP... A Great resource for all new pool builders, whether you have Lost your Gatos or not...

Based upon the size of your pool and your requirements, I believe that you need a very large SWCG (or two smaller ones) and a Stenner acid injection system. This is the system that is going to make your life easy, you really don't what to skimp here.

We always recommend a SWCG that is at least 2 x the volume of your pool. So that is 100K as a minimum. This is because salt cells are rated when running at 100% output and 24 hours a day.

If you insist on constantly running your water feature is will be harder to keep you pH from increasing, so the Stenner will allow you to keep the increase under control.

If you listen to your pool builder about saltwater pools, he will soon have you convinced that saltwater is what caused the Titanic to sink.. It was in saltwater and it sunk... must have been the saltwater, what else could it be???

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[JasonO]

Thank you Jim! I really appreciate the feedback.

The SWG makes the most sense to me too. I'll research what would best supply the 100k+ of sanitation.

I never even considered a Stenner pump for adding acid, but that does make a lot of sense too. I am not nearly as familiar with the PH relationship as I am the chlorine. I notice that you have waterfalls too, do you think the 3gpd Stenner pump and a 5 gallon tank will will suffice for the acid injection? Or do I go with the larger set up?

Thanks again for the help!

 

[PoolGate]

I would go with 2 40-60k SWCG systems. Have you considered a Grotto?

Standardize on a brand that you like and get their automation. As long as you stick with the big brands, you'll be ok.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Thank you Jim! I really appreciate the feedback.

The SWG makes the most sense to me too. I'll research what would best supply the 100k+ of sanitation.

I never even considered a Stenner pump for adding acid, but that does make a lot of sense too. I am not nearly as familiar with the PH relationship as I am the chlorine. I notice that you have waterfalls too, do you think the 3gpd Stenner pump and a 5 gallon tank will will suffice for the acid injection? Or do I go with the larger set up?

Thanks again for the help!

Jason,

My waterfall wall automatically only runs 15 minutes a day just to keep the water chlorinated.. Other than that I only run it when I want to 'showoff'...

I don't have Stenner system and just add Muriatic Acid manually once a week to two weeks depending on the time of the year.

I don't really know the details on the Stenner systems, but quite a few people here use them. Since they are more of a DIY install, and not normally done by pool builders, it might make sense to get everything going and see what your acid demand actually is, before deciding on what size to buy.

Thanks for posting,

Jim R.

 

[Philo]

My 2 cents....I'd run 2 Pentair IC60's SWG in parallel and ditch the tablet feeder and Ozone.

 

[shanebo]

Wow, that's a huge pool! Looks like it'll be awesome. Great that you're thinking everything out ahead of time -- there's no substitute for good planning.

A couple of thoughts.

- You'll want a SWG system. It's the lowest-maintenance option, especially since you travel frequently and your pool is huge. There have been times when I've had to supplement my SWG pool with 2 gals of chlorine at once, and it's about half the size of yours. Just get a big system. BTW, I have a natural stone waterfall, bluestone coping, and concrete decking and haven't yet seen any ill effects at all from the salt water.

- You'll likely need a separate pump for the waterfalls. I'm by no means an expert on this topic, but I would think spa + filter + waterfalls would be too much for that pump. I have two on my pool -- one that runs the filter and slide and another that runs my waterfall. Do you want both waterfalls running at the same speed? If not, be sure to add some sort of diverter valve.

- Look into a robot for cleaning. I have the polaris cleaner with booster pump, and I'm fine with it, but if I had to do it over again I'd consider a robot. They're pretty highly recommended on here.

- I have hayward omnilogic automation and love it. Definitely worth the $ to be able to adjust pump speeds, chlorination levels, turn waterfall/slide/heater/lights on and off, etc. from my lounge chair or even when I'm traveling out of town.

- Lights. Didn't seen them mentioned. One for the spa, at least two (maybe three or more) for the pool. Do you want them sync'd or separate? Omnilogic has some really cool light shows. Something to think about.

Good luck with the build!

 

[JasonO]

Thanks Jim. That is also a good point. I've read so much about the Stenners, I'm pretty keen on the concept. But you are right. I will make sure there is space for the install to be convenient, but might as well wait and see what is really needed.

PoolGate, thanks for the comment. I like the idea of two smaller SWG systems working in parallel, as long as it makes economic sense. At first glance it looks like it will.

So far, I'm going with the Hayward system:
A) Its what my PB sells. Our PB has been around forever, and has a good reputation for standing behind their work, so I figure, 'use what they know'.
B) I'm sold on the Omnilogic control of everything. At least the demo seemed awesome.

But I am concerned about the lighting. We plan on extensive landscape lighting, cool lighting for our cabana structure, and the pool lighting will really be the focal point. Our PB has called out 3 ColorLogic 4.0 lights for the pool, and 1 fort he spa. But everything I read about the Hayward lighting is that they are bright and beautiful, but unreliable and failure prone. I'm tempted to go with a different light, but worried it won't play nice with the Omnilogic controller. Plus, I don't know of a better light. I'm hoping at this point the 4.0 lights have gotten better?

We are going to go with different lighting for the waterfalls.

 

[JasonO]

Philo,
Agreed about the Ozone and UV system. Its out. I was tempted to keep the tablet feeder, just as a back up. But if I go with dual SWGs, I really shouldn't need that. I'll check out the Pentairs. Thanks!

Shanebo,
Thanks for all the comments! Those are all considerations I am stewing over.

Waterfalls - we do have a a separate pump for the waterfalls, a 1.5 hp HWD MaxFlo, and 3" pvc. I do plan to have them run at the same speed, but maybe a manual diverter valve would be good, as they invariably will want to run differently. This way we can equalize them. Great idea.

Robot - I am really tempted to go with a Robot for performance. But I don't like having to put it in and take it out all the time. Not ideal when I am traveling, and the fam is using the pool. My PB recomended to go with the regular POL 28 for now, because it just lives in the pool and does its thing on schedule. And maybe when the kids are older, and can be relied upon to participate in the maintenance, we can upgrade to a robot. I'm still debating that one. How many times a week would I run the robot? Thanks for the input.

Omniogic - Thank you very much for the feedback on this. I like the system for exactly the reasons you have stated. Its hard to get a read, because mostly you see negative reviews when things go bad. Smart device controls is a big plus for me.

Lights - See my previous post. I'm struggling with the lights. 3 or 4 for the pool? And how long have you had your Hayward lights? Any issues? Everything I read is that they are beautiful. Until they die. But again, how many people with positive experiences post about their lights 3 years after install when all is going well? Probably none. These lights are crazy expensive. If they deliver, then its worth it to us. But not if they fail 3 years in. And if they die while under warranty, does the pool need to be drained to replace these lights? That would be an issue.
Still struggling...

Thanks everyone for the great feedback! I really appreciate it.
Jason

 

[Jimrahbe]

Jason,

Keep in mind that different brands of equipment will not 'normally' talk together.

So, before you decide on a Pentair SWCG, please make sure it can be controlled by whatever brand of automation you plan to use. The same thing applies to VS pumps.

This is why I recommended that you go with the Saline C 6.0, which I "assume" can be controlled by the Hayward automation system. I'd double check before buying anything.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[JasonO]

Thank you Jim.
Yes, I do understand that and agree with you. I'd like to go "all Hayward", as that's what my PB knows. Then it should "just work". Hopefully.

I really like their OnmiLogic control so far, and the Ecostar VS pump supposedly plays really nice with it. But I also already have some reservations about their lighting, and maybe their heaters. So I think its worth exploring other options for SWGs and everything else. Ultimately, the Hayward with the Saline 6 C may well be the cleanest, most dependable solution. But I feel the need to explore the other possibilities. Maybe a hybrid system, maybe a whole different manufacturer.

And that is what makes this forum so amazing. If I dig long enough, somebody has probably posted about it. And if I end up sticking with all Hayward equipment (likely), it will be because I feel it offers the best trade off of ease vs function. Not because I had too.

Thanks to all of you for continuing my education.

Jason

 

[Backyard_Lap_Pool]

My 2 cents.... if you have a good source for industrial bleach, a 30 gal tank + stenner pump plugged into a gfci on a feature circuit makes chlorinating a breeze. My two 30 gal tanks run on 10 gpd pumps and currently run for 75 minutes at dusk to dump about a gallon into the pool each night. I have injection barbs just before return manifold at pad on both systems. In the summer, they run upwards of 4 hours at dusk to keep the chlorine levels up.

This is a relatively inexpensive solution for us because we can get the 10-12% bleach at $1.81 per gallon locally. (Tip: see who supplies bulk sodium hypochlorite to your local water and sewage treatment plants and hopefully they also sell mini-bulk orders to the public).

On the acid, I typically hand dump 1 1/2 gallons a week into the pool. Initially I was going to do a stenner on the acid but it’s so little that I can do it on weekend maintenance day.

I have been happy with my VS intelliflo. Reliable and pretty quiet.

The quad DE filters (hybrid de / cartridge) have been awesome. Pool is crystal clear - I can see from one end to the other (82’). They are easy to clean out and only take 10 lbs of de to recharge.

I have been having issues with the intellibrite 5g 12v lights - can’t say I recommend them.

Our Dolphin M500 works well. I would vote for the robot over a pressure side cleaner. More energy efficient.

 

[Jimrahbe]

My 2 cents.... if you have a good source for industrial bleach, a 30 gal tank + stenner pump plugged into a gfci on a feature circuit makes chlorinating a breeze. My two 30 gal tanks run on 10 gpd pumps and currently run for 75 minutes at dusk to dump about a gallon into the pool each night. I have injection barbs just before return manifold at pad on both systems. In the summer, they run upwards of 4 hours at dusk to keep the chlorine levels up.

This is a relatively inexpensive solution for us because we can get the 10-12% bleach at $1.81 per gallon locally. (Tip: see who supplies bulk sodium hypochlorite to your local water and sewage treatment plants and hopefully they also sell mini-bulk orders to the public).

On the acid, I typically hand dump 1 1/2 gallons a week into the pool. Initially I was going to do a stenner on the acid but it’s so little that I can do it on weekend maintenance day.

I have been happy with my VS intelliflo. Reliable and pretty quiet.

The quad DE filters (hybrid de / cartridge) have been awesome. Pool is crystal clear - I can see from one end to the other (82’). They are easy to clean out and only take 10 lbs of de to recharge.

I have been having issues with the intellibrite 5g 12v lights - can’t say I recommend them.

Our Dolphin M500 works well. I would vote for the robot over a pressure side cleaner. More energy efficient.

BYLP,

Did you install the Stenner or was it done by your pool builder? If by the PB, did he know what it was or is this something that you had to bring him up to speed on?

I only ask, because I'm not sure that most PBs even know what they are, or what they do..

Appreciate any feedback...

Jim R.

 

[Backyard_Lap_Pool]

BYLP,

Did you install the Stenner or was it done by your pool builder? If by the PB, did he know what it was or is this something that you had to bring him up to speed on?

I only ask, because I'm not sure that most PBs even know what they are, or what they do..

Appreciate any feedback...

Jim R.

I had the plumber plumb in a 2” tee before the manifold with a reducer with a female NPT thread in it for the injector barb. (I had them do 2 per equipment set with the thought that I would have one for acid and one for bleach. I ended up only using one for bleach.)

Then I had the electrician install a gfci outlet on the wall between where the two tanks were going to be installed . The gfci outlet was wired into a relay so that the automation controller could turn it on and off.

The rest is pretty easily installed after your pool is delivered to you by your builder.

Builder was not familiar with this solution - I spoke directly with the trades to work out the details.

 

[Jimrahbe]

BYLP,

I'm impressed, that is an excellent solution.. In most equipment pads it is almost impossible to do modifications or changes.

A great idea!!!

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[PoolGate]

BYLP,

I'm impressed, that is an excellent solution.. In most equipment pads it is almost impossible to do modifications or changes.

A great idea!!!

Thanks,

Jim R.

+!!

I tried to get my plumber to do a couple minor mods like adding unions and he would not vary from his PB supplied specs.

 

[Jimrahbe]

+!!

I tried to get my plumber to do a couple minor mods like adding unions and he would not vary from his PB supplied specs.

pg,

It makes we want to cry when I see $1,000 dollar pumps installed without $20 dollar pump unions. It is actually more work not to use unions...

Sigh!!

Jim R.

 

[shanebo]

No experience with robots, but I do appreciate the convenience of my polaris. Stays in the pool 24/7 (except when I have a party), and runs via the schedule I programmed in omnilogic. Seems to do a fine job, too.

As for lights, I've had no problem with my Haywards (knock on wood ...), but they're only a little over a year old. I have 4 in my (much smaller) pool -- one standard light at each end, one accent light on the tanning shelf, and another on the swim-out bench. PB recommended these and I'm glad he did. Avoids the shadow effect you often see on these features. I've heard about some syncing issues, but I've haven't had any. My only minor complaint is that it occasionally takes a minute or so to cycle through to the correct color, and that it seems to take longer for the app to process light commands than others. Other than that, I've been really happy with them so far.

 

[PoolGate]

No experience with robots, but I do appreciate the convenience of my polaris. Stays in the pool 24/7 (except when I have a party), and runs via the schedule I programmed in omnilogic. Seems to do a fine job, too.

As for lights, I've had no problem with my Haywards (knock on wood ...), but they're only a little over a year old. I have 4 in my (much smaller) pool -- one standard light at each end, one accent light on the tanning shelf, and another on the swim-out bench. PB recommended these and I'm glad he did. Avoids the shadow effect you often see on these features. I've heard about some syncing issues, but I've haven't had any. My only minor complaint is that it occasionally takes a minute or so to cycle through to the correct color, and that it seems to take longer for the app to process light commands than others. Other than that, I've been really happy with them so far.

My Jandy lights are the same way. Totally archaic programming they have to cycle through the entire color wheel to get to the color you select. But they effect in the pool is totally awesome. I have two and they are perfectly in sync. The Jandy lights also have programs that fade in and out and change colors. Really cool!

 

[JasonO]

Thank you BYLP!
I have actually given the Stenner pump option a lot of thought. I'm comfortable with setting them up myself, and I like the level of control it affords. I wasn't sure about the scale of the project, but after viewing your amazing thread, I feel more confident with it. Your plumbing set up with the "tees" is exactly what I had in mind. I can get 12% chlorine here in 5 gallon jugs, so it is very doable. Decisions.

Thanks for the input on the Quad DE filter as well. I've read a lot about that unit and am leaning heavily toward that choice. It will work fine with the Hayward system, right?

For the robot vs polaris, I get the performance advantage, but I'm just not comfortable with having to put in the bot, then take it out a few hours later. I have the luxury of working from home often, but I rarely know where I'm going to be a few hours from now. I just really like the fact that the polaris will just do its thing, even when I don't. I can tinker with the chlorine or acid readings at 1am, and make my adjustments, but I don't want to fool with the robot. And that is something I can always upgrade years from now.

BTW - BYLP, that is an absolutely amazing build thread - good and the bad. I really hope your pool is recovering, and you have got some degree of normalcy back to your home and family life. What a story, and your composure through it all is impressive.

Shanebo, I think you and I are in the same camp about the polaris! And I'm really glad to hear it about the lights. The Colorlogic lights seem impressive, and are likely my best option with the Hayward set up. I'm going to lean hard on my PB about the warranty/bad press. I'm also going to ask if I can add some sealant prior to installation, as 90% of the issues I've read about are failures caused by bad seals. Wonder if it will void the warranty? I'll ask.

Thank you everyone! Any other tips or recommendations?