Help me dial in my SWG -- How much UV does an auto cover block?

[treyrich]

6:26AM Added 1g of 10% bleach (pool essentials from walmart, julian date 208 so very fresh)

Yes, Julian date 208 on this one, so that was only a couple weeks ago.

I'm as confident as I can be on the pool volume, I'm not entirely sure how I can get a much higher level of confidence, but I'm open to suggestions. I have a whole house flow-meter (Phyn) which I compared to individual flow meters on each of the hoses I had doing the fill which I compared to the house's city water meter. Obviously there were discrepancies, but they were all within what I would say was an acceptable range since the house flow-meter and the city meter both were accounting for our family's usage within the home as well, so I took the value of the flow meters on the hose as my final value. The exact count was 22,016 gallons but I figured for chemical purposes saying 22,000 would be fine. We also setup the autofill after this point, which may have the water sitting slightly differently on the tile line than where I filled to initially so I guess we're 22,000 +- a few hundred?

As for the IC-60, I'm pretty sure. Attached is the photo that I took of the label on the box before it was installed. I guess I haven't done anything to verify that it's actually an IC-60 now that it's all up and running, but seems unlikely that it'd be anything else?

Both the installer and the pentair rep for my area are really good guys and it's as easy as a quick text message to either of them to get one of them out to look at it. So I'm not worried about them standing by the system, I just want to make sure that when I call them out that they don't just push 3 buttons on the SWG and say "There, now it's not in demo mode anymore" or something stupid like that haha. So I'll definitely inspect the cell, and would love any other advice prior to me raising the warranty issue.

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

You'll get it sorted out. At least you know the weak link in the system now. Let us know what happens on your 24-hour chlorine loss test.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Trey,

I have yet to see a cell that would not produce chlorine, unless it had obvious issues that would prevent the cell from working.

About 75% of all reported SWCG "failures" turn out to be not the SWCG at all...

That does not mean your cell could not be bad, it just means it would be not the norm..

Some things that come to mind are:

We think the cell is working for X hours, but the automation program is not allowing the cell to actually work.. The cell will only produce when in the Pool or Spa modes.. Make sure you are in the Pool mode for the entire time you want the cell to work. I have seen programs like the following..

Bad program.. The Op thinks the cell is on for 24 hours but it is not...
Pool 8 am until 8 pm (Cell is on)
Cleaner 8 pm until 8 am.. (Cell is off)

Good program
Pool 8 am until 8 am (Cell is on..)
Cleaner 8 pm until 8 am.. (Cell is still on)

Try this test...

Set the cell's output to 50%. Watch the "Cell" light.. It should come on for 2.5 minutes and then it will be off for about 2.5 minutes. This cycle just keeps repeating... If you pass this test, the cell is most likely produce chlorine at the rated level.

Another thing I would look at... Make sure that when you adjust the cell's output on your automation, that the cell's sanitizer light actually change to match the wanted output.. So, if you set the output to 60%, using the automation, make sure the lights on the cell actually show 60%. (It might take a few minutes to update..)

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[treyrich]

Thanks for your input Jim! Would love for this to be my mistake and not require a replacement cell, so let's for sure work towards that outcome haha.

Ok. Maybe a quick sanity check if I could bother you to check my work? Attached is a screenshot of my schedules from intellicenter to the best of my understanding pool mode should be running 23.5 hours a day and spa mode for 30 minutes per day (to keep fresh water flowing through everything in the spa if we don't use it for a few days). I do however have multiple 'pool' schedules because I use them to set the heat pump to run when energy is cheapest or being produced by my PV Solar. So, long story short, 'pool' mode or 'spa' mode should be running 24/7 if I understand what I've setup correctly.

As for the lights. I have confirmed both that the 'cell' light comes on for the specified percentage of time, and that the percentage lights update to be in line with what's set in the intellicenter, so neither of those (appear) to be misbehaving. For example last night when I set the cell to 100% I triple verified that the 100% light indicator was on, and the 'salt', 'cell' and 'flow' lights were both on and green as well. Do you think that it could be helpful to put a camera out on the cell overnight or something to ensure that the lights aren't doing something unexpected when I turn my back?

The odd thing here is, I'm 100% certain that the cell HAS produced chlorine in the past, in fact even last night we had a 1ppm increase in FC (expecting a 4ppm increase), but if it's only working some of the time it would explain a ton of what I've been going through with this pool and why I can't get my settings dialed in...But I don't want to jump to the salt cell being bad just because it makes me feel better about my problems haha

 

[treyrich]

I also use njspc and home assistant. Here are the graphs that show the last week of data from the IC-60 and the pool-mode. Not sure how relevant it is, and don't mean to flood this thread with data. But as far as I can tell pool mode is running most all of the time, and the output settings are what I expect.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Trey,

I doubt it has anything to do with your issue, but wow, I don't understand what you are trying to do..

I would have just set Pool to 8 am until 8 am (24/7)
Spa could still be 5:30 am to 5 am.. it will just override the Pool mode..

Your two 2200 RPM schedules would still work just fine.

I assume that 2200 RPM is needed to run your heat pump..

What is the RPM for your Pool Circuit? What RPM is required to turn on the cell's flow switch?

Other than much more complexity then is needed, I don't see any obvious problems with your schedules.

Your IC60 Target, Current, and Salt graphs make no sense to me when compared to your schedules, but as long as they make some sense to you, I am good..

You must be fun in company meetings...

I was just trying to think of something different that might be the problem, but that does not seem to be the case..

That kind of leaves either a bad cell or algae... My money is on algae, but would be happy to be proven wrong.. (Again!!!)

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[treyrich]

Hey Jim,

(Apologies in advance for the lengthy response.)

Appreciate the feedback. I can see how it seems pretty complex. In the simplest terms, I don't want the heatpump running in the following time blocks 6AM - 12PM and 4PM - 12AM, but I do want the pool to run during those times.

The only way I could figure out how to do this was to create separate schedules for the times I do want the pump to run without heatpump (6AM-12PM and 4PM-12AM) with the "heat mode" set to "off", then separate schedules for the times I want the pump to run with the heatpump (12AM - 5:30AM and 12PM - 4PM) with the "heat mode" set to "UltraTemp Only". Maybe I overthought it though?

What is the RPM for your Pool Circuit? What RPM is required to turn on the cell's flow switch?

The pool runs at 1100RPM (SWG flow switch trips at 950), the 2200RPM circuit is for skimming/suction cleaner.

Your IC60 Target, Current, and Salt graphs make no sense to me when compared to your schedules, but as long as they make some sense to you, I am good..

Yeah, they do make sense to me (I doubt you care for me to explain them) I was mostly including them to show that as far as my data shows, the SWG has been "running". But yes, disregard the actual values as they fluctuate with the cover on/off and things.

You must be fun in company meetings...

Hahaha I try to keep my role in company meetings firmly in the "guy that brings the donuts" category. Happy to invite you to the next one

I was just trying to think of something different that might be the problem, but that does not seem to be the case..

That kind of leaves either a bad cell or algae... My money is on algae, but would be happy to be proven wrong.. (Again!!!)

Definitely didn't mean to "prove you wrong" in any negative way, hopefully my responses didn't come off as anything but grateful! I am insanely grateful for all of the knowledge and help I've received on this site. I also SERIOUSLY appreciate the tone of this site, there are many forums that turn very toxic and lead to people being worried/scared about asking questions. The atmosphere on this site is incredible! I'm also super grateful that you all have taken the time to help me with my specific issue here.

As for algae, that quite possibly would be the most depressing thing that could happen here hahaha. At least the SWG being bad has a clear solution, but I have SLAMed to completion 2 times in the last month and passed another OCLT 2 nights ago. I will do another one tonight (in conjunction with the 24 hour test currently running), but if it's algae I'm going to need a whole host of additional advice because clearly I'm doing something terribly wrong if that ends up being the case.

Once again, apologies if any of my responses came off with any unintended tone, perhaps we can write it off as my frustration with the situation getting the best of me.

 

[Newdude]

passed another OCLT 2 nights ago. I will do another one tonight

but if it's algae I'm going to need a whole host of additional advice because clearly I'm doing something terribly wrong if that ends up being the case.

We see a bunch that 'missed a spot' in their slam. Say, the ladder rails or light niche. It may not be enough to fail an OCLT and they end slam and the algae starts getting reintroduced that moment. A few days or a 2 weeks later they're seeing the bloom in their testing again. Repeat slams almost always point to algae hiding in plain sight somewhere.

You will get confirmation tonight that the other OCLT wasn't a fluke. Also check the cell as it's the easiest answer why you don't have algae, and the cell is on but doesn't produce.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Once again, apologies if any of my responses came off with any unintended tone, perhaps we can write it off as my frustration with the situation getting the best of me.

Trey,

I did not see any 'tone' issues at all... All your posts seem fine to me... As far as "proving" me wrong.. that is what you are supposed to do, that is how I learn...But, you will have to get behind the million guys that have already done it..

We tend to see three types of posts.. Kind of like the Three Bears.. Too little, too much, or just right...

Too little is when someone posts "I need help" and then you have to drag every single relevant detail out of them, piece by piece, post by post.

Too much is when someone posts about a popped circuit breaker, but starts off by telling us all about their trip to Europe last year and that their breakers look different than our. I tend to lose interest after about the 10th page.

Just right is when the OP reduces the problem to just the pertinent facts and tries to stay focused on the problem at hand.


If this were my pool I would try to isolate the problem by using Liquid Chlorine for a week with the cover off. This would allow you to get a base line on how much FC is being used each day without too many variables. If you have algae, it will be pretty hard to keep chlorine in the water.

Then I would do the same thing with your SWCG, again with the cover open, and see what happens.

You may have already done this, as I admit I have not read your entire thread..

The only other option is to replace the SWCG and see if that fixes the problem, but that may be harder than it sounds, as the pool builder or Pentair will want you to jump through hoops to replace it.

Thanks for being a member and I hope you get your SWCG problem taken care of quickly, no matter the cause..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[treyrich]

Haha, if I’ve shown anything it’s that I’m pretty much clueless about what my problem is (though I’m sure my wife has a long list).

Speaking of my wife, there’s no way she’ll sign on for me keeping the over off for a week. So whatever I do it’s going to have to be with the cover on when unattended for now unfortunately.

But noted on the length of the thread, I’ll try to keep it to the facts! If I lose your interest then I’ll really be in trouble haha

 

[Rancho Cost-a-Lotta]

No worries. Keep us posted on OCLT and 24 hour test.

 

[treyrich]

Looks like the cell is ok? I’ll attach a photo here, definitely no scale, but does the blade in the middle there being discolored mean anything?

 

[Newdude]

It'd probably wipe clean with vinegar. That's nice and clean otherwise and pointing back to a cell issue if the OCLT passed again.

 

[treyrich]

Ok, results of my tests:

24 hour loss - 3ppm (15.5 to 12.5)
OCLT - 1ppm (13.5 to 12.5)

There was a bit of rain last night which may have caused some additional contaminants to get in the pool, but probably not much since it was covered.

I sat this morning and watched the SWG and have double confirmed that all of the lights are working as expected. I also did a salt test with my test kit and got 3000ppm.

Is there any definitive way to test what the cell is producing besides what we’ve done?

 

[treyrich]

I just did a VERY uncontrolled experiment where I took a water sample from as far from a return as possible, and one directly from a return while the cell was “generating”, and it definitely seems like it’s putting out chlorine as the sample from at the return was ~2ppm higher than the one farther away from it.

So, the questions that I have at this point are:

1. Do I have algae?
2. Is my SWG generating the amount it should be? (Seems clear it’s generating something)

As far as I can tell all of my testing has led to one of these two things being the issue, with very little clarity on which one it might be.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Trey,

We do not normally pay any attention to Phosphates, but in this case I would be interested in knowing your phosphate level???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[treyrich]

Is the Taylor K-1106 the best bet to get a read on that?

 

[Jimrahbe]

Trey,

If you want to do several tests on you own then the Taylor -1106

As much as I dislike pool stores. if you are just going to do the test once, then I would use them.. Accuracy is not really an issue in this case. Just looking to see if you have a very low or very high reading.

I admit I am grasping at straws here..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[treyrich]

No problem at all, I'll happily take your wild theories over mine any day. I just ordered the Taylor -1106 it'll be here Monday, which works because I'm headed out of town this evening until Sunday afternoon anyways, so quickest I could get to a pool store would be Monday either way.

I guess, unless anyone as any other ideas than testing for phosphates, I'll just dose up to (or as close as I can get with the bleach on hand) SLAM this evening before I leave, and hope that between that and the SWG the pool doesn't crash before I'm back.

 

[treyrich]

One more note, I just tested CYA again, looks like I’m back down to 50. Is that normal for the CYA to be consumed that fast? Could this contribute to the losses that we’re seeing since I’ve been maintaining things SUPER high for 50 CYA. How often should I be testing this? Seems like I lost 20 in less than a week.