Help identifying HydroAir parts to connect a jet

[akom]

Hi all,

I'm troubleshooting plumbing leaks in my inground hot tub.
I dug up one of the jets that never worked, suspecting that it's at fault.
Now I see why it never worked (although there is no leak here):

Looks like it was never hooked up, and the back of the jet is wrapped in some sort of putty. The plumbing is 2" (air) and 1" (water). An unused reducing tee was buried in the sand (2" -> 1.5")...

This is the face:

I'd like to hook it up. From what I can tell, the jets are HydroAir Micro'ssage.
While shopping for parts, I see this type of thing, which is too short for the wall:

Or this type of thing, which I don't understand:

Is that a venturi? Which one is air?

My walls are 7" thick..

Any idea how I can plumb the existing jet to the pipes? If necessary, I can probably replace the whole thing in the wall and mortar around it.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[Texas Splash]

Let's see if @RDspaguy can help us on this one. Stand by ...........

 

[akom]

Thanks @Texas Splash .

On a side note, I don't understand how it makes sense to reduce a 2" water line from pump to a 1" jet water ring. The circumference of a 1" pipe is almost 4x smaller, or 2x smaller if it's teed into two pipes. No wonder I was getting 30psi pushing water to the jets, even with the filter cartridge removed (pump on high speed).

BTW: any legitimate reason why that jet was never hooked up, besides workers forgetting to do it? Not enough pressure? Failed/leaked and didn't want to break the tub to replace it?

 

[RDspaguy]

plumbing is 2" (air) and 1" (water)

Jets don't have bigger air lines than water lines. If it's a 2"/1", then the 1" is the air connection on the jet.

Looks like it was never hooked up,

No, it looks like the jet body broke, and they cut it out and spliced in a piece of rigid pvc between 2 couplings and sealed off the back of the jet to stop it from leaking. You're looking at a repair.

I see this type of thing, which is too short for the wall:

This is for a fiberglass shell, either inground or portable, and a very old design. They used to make them in every configuration imagineable, but now only a few of the most popular are still available.

Or this type of thing, which I don't understand

Concrete jet, installed before the concrete and plaster. These cannot be replaced without a jackhammer that I know of. Maybe @JamesW or @1poolman1 might know a way.

don't understand how it makes sense to reduce a 2" water line from pump to a 1" jet water ring. The circumference of a 1" pipe is almost 4x smaller, or 2x smaller if it's teed into two pipes. No wonder I was getting 30psi pushing water to the jets, even with the filter cartridge removed (pump on high speed).

Not sure what you mean. I've never seen a "jet water ring". Are you talking about a ring of holes in the footwell? If so, that should be on a blower, likely along with the air intakes on the jets.
From the sound of it, I'm thinking your problems are bigger than a leak, or the leak is just a symptom of a plumbing problem, such as the air line being plumbed to water pressure.

 

[akom]

That helps a lot, thanks! I suspected that I needed the long jet body, but it didn't look right until I chiseled out the remnants of mine and mentally reconstructed what it used to look like.

I ordered a Hydroair Gunite Microssage 16-5275WHT. Concrete work doesn't sound that difficult - I plan to collapse the broken jet body in-place using a heat gun (or PVC glue on fire ), then chip or grind at the gunite (or whatever the tub wall is made of) until I can fit the new one in. What material to use to cement it in is an open question: Rapid-Set Cement-All? Some flexible caulk type product?

I don't know why I was thinking that the air plumbing was larger than water. It makes much more sense the other way, and resolves my question about flow restriction.
By "jet water ring" I meant the loop of 2" flex pipe that surrounds the hot tub jets.

I am still trying to find the leak, it's definitely in the jet plumbing. I have the four upper jets (I dug up two of four jet body tees, no leaks there), and a single footwell jet. I suspect that the footwell jet plumbing is leaking due to frost damage - the hot tub collects rainwater in winter despite the vinyl cover, and can get half-full in a few months, so that pipe would be flooded (that jet also doesn't drain all the water without help, pipe must have a U-shaped slope someplace). Unfortunately that's the hardest plumbing section to reach, it's 4' deep and under the tub. If that's the problem area, I may either seal off the pipe going that way (if I can find it), or try to improvise something like Home - Pipepoxy or PipeFuze (or find someone who does that in my area)

I bought a surface mic and an endoscope to try to identify the location of the leak. The mic got me nowhere, but I am hopeful about the endoscope. I can't get the endoscope around corners so I plan to temporarily cut the pipe in one or two places. That will also let me isolate sections for pressure testing.

Speaking of pressure testing, I now have a full set of expanding test plugs so I am able to pressurize the jet plumbing with either air compressor or water. Pressure drops fairly quickly (a few minutes from 20psi to 0), but not instantly, so there is hope of using some kind of no-dig sealer. Or that's what I keep telling myself.

Thanks again.

 

[RDspaguy]

Concrete work doesn't sound that difficult

Perhaps not, but it's the point where I recommend an inground pool builder. Can't help you with that.

I meant the loop of 2" flex pipe that surrounds the hot tub jets

Surrounds, or connects (except that broken one)?
The jets are typically plumbed in a loop to help equalize jet pressures, and is how the "butterfly" jetbacks are designed. There is no reason for it to go to 1" unless out of a tee to a dead-end run.

Speaking of pressure testing,

Pressure testing a spa is tricky at best and impossible at worst. Each jet must be plugged far enough back to close it off from the air line as well as the tub. This often means a jet orifice or tiny hole at the very back of the jet, some 9" or so on yours if the walls are 7". Since air lines are often equipped with a seep hole in a hartford loop you can loose pressure on it with no water leak even if plugged at the blower or air intake, so it must be isolated at each jet. If equipped with an air control valve it must be cut out and plugged, as the air control valve itself cannot be plugged and will not hold pressure just with the valve. So, my advice is to be very certain of your results before you go digging any deeper.

 

[akom]

The bit about the Hartford loop is new to me. I don't seem to have one (I'm going by the diagram here Spa Blower Piping ). From what I can tell, I just have the blower on top of a check valve, then the pipe goes down a few feet underground, over to the spa, then back up to the air loop. Water return does the same.

I just dug up that section at the spa so I'm fairly confident about the layout. I added a valve under the blower so I can pressurize the air/water loops together. I got jets plugged at the spa side (1-3/8" plugs in my case, jet fitting removed), and I plugged the air control valve by making a very long 1" expanding rubber plug that I insert down into the pipe (its on 10" of threaded rod). It's true that I can't be sure that I got all the possible orifices plugged, but I can tell you that when pressure testing with water, I am steadily losing pressure and there is no water appearing anywhere (in the empty spa or anywhere I can access). Water is going someplace and I'm betting it's going into the sand under the spa.

I'll poke some more today and may figure something out.

 

[RDspaguy]

don't seem to have one

Not all of them do. It keeps the blower line from flooding when off.

is going someplace and I'm betting it's going into the sand under the spa.

Sounds like you've been pretty thorough.

 

[akom]

Perhaps I don't have a Hartford loop because my blower is 4 feet above water level...

Just-for-fun update while I wait for the new jet:

I spent some quality time with an endoscope figuring out the layout and came up with this:

Since I strongly suspected the footwell plumbing (near Jet 5) to be leaky, I cut the pipes at "Cut Point A", plugged the bottom ends and pressurized it from the pump house (air compressor). I was totally wrong - all the plumbing below Cut Point A is fine, and holds pressure indefinitely. This is good news because getting to the area under the hot tub is nearly impossible.




So this tells me that the upper plumbing is at fault. I went through both rings (water and air) with the endoscope and found nothing obvious, aside for a section that's particularly black (moldy?).

I guess my next steps are to dig up the upper ring and cut it into segments to pressure test individually. Waiting for more test plugs from Amazon. Wish me luck.

 

[RDspaguy]

Perhaps I don't have a Hartford loop because my blower is 4 feet above water level...

They all are. Some still have the loop. Without it, it can take a minute or 3 to push all the water out to get air to the jets. It also cuts down on the amount of stagnant water in the blower lines. If you turn on the blower and see bubbles almost immediately, it has a loop. On most fiberglass tubs that have it, it's under the shell edge somewhere. I have also seen them buried and hidden in a garden area under bushes, in raised planters, and among decorative stone beside the pool deck.