Help. First time pool owner in Nassau County, NY.

[Pool Amateur]

Hey Skimmerswimmer,
Just curious, what is the range of cost to replaster your pool, I have friend who has some significant damage, he said the guy who acid washed his pool said starting at 10K but could go to 15K depending on finish.

 

[George D]

Thanks for the helpful info Fingaling and Pool Amateur. I will not drain but with the frequent vacuum to waste and Backwashing, it's like I'm doing a slow partial drain and removing debris in the process. My CYA level should be less than 30 now as a result. I will test for this tomorrow as well. You're right Pool Amateur...Lots of patience will be required the rest of the way, especially in a few days when the temperature starts climbing to the 80's.
I will be adding less chlorine until it reaches normal shock level depending on my CYA test tomorrow.
The blocked return is a mystery. It was working well with lots of pressure. I read in another thread that someone stated when they placed a sock filled with stabilizer, near the return, it caused a clog in that return. That's exactly how I added the stabilizer.
Can someone verify if this would cause any damage? A pool pro advised that during this process when I Backwash the filter, I should skip the Rinse and turn the handle to Filter for 10 seconds and Backwash again. He said to repeat this 3 times. I did this once and I realized that day my return was clogged but I don't know the cause.

 

[Pool Amateur]

I will be adding less chlorine until it reaches normal shock level depending on my CYA test tomorrow.

I would not add ANY chlorine until FC reaches SLAM target for your CYA. Also, what was your PH prior to SLAM?

As far as CYA clogging return, I do not think it is remotely possible. The return shoots water out hits the sock stirring the ingredients helping it to dissolve faster. It never enters return line. If CYA was in skimmer, maybe clog filter but still not return, from what I know.

A pool pro advised that during this process when I Backwash the filter, I should skip the Rinse and turn the handle to Filter for 10 seconds and Backwash again. He said to repeat this 3 times. I did this once and I realized that day my return was clogged but I don't know the cause.

OK, this is a possibility, but I’m not sure a probability. Rinse, as I understand it, clears residual dirt out of lines so that dirt does not go back into pool (via return lines), but that same dirt plus a whole lot more that left via waste during backwash, made it through the intake lines and pump and did not clog intake lines, why would a lot less dirt, that was residual, clog your return lines unless return lines are much smaller diameter. So what size are your return lines?

Also, what was the pro’s rational for this? Where did you meet this pro? But this is a good reason not to just blindly follow advice but to ask questions why, whether it is from an expert or moderator on this forum (who I highly respect, but may not always be right, or did not have all or the correct information when advice was given). I also understand when starting that you sometimes have to learn so much that it is not always practical to understand, so we just do it without understanding. Been there done that, that is usually when I paid my tuition for that free advice/experience/education. Maybe there is a good reason to do this procedure, I just do not see at the moment. But I also do not think it was the main reason for the return to clog, but may be the straw that broke the camel’s back. So what is the diameter of the return?

 

[George D]

In April, I called a 2nd pool company and the pro diagnosed the problem with the lines. There was a rupture in the pipes. He dug until he found ruptures in 2 places in the flex PVC and fixed the problem using one regular PVC pipe. He recommended this. The pro from the 1st company said all my lines were clogged and I needed to remove all the pavers so he can install new pipes. I'm glad I got a 2nd opinion.
The pro from the 2nd md company also helped me today when he called about the deep return. I'm glad to report that was not the cause for the non-working return. There is a 2nd valve in my system that is near the heater which I have not touched. Valve was in 6: position. He told me to turn this valve in different positions but when I did the deep return worked and the shallow ones did not. I then turned the valve a bit in between the 6 and 9 position and they are working again. Great. The shallow returns are a bit weaker but still pushing out water. It seemed like they were pushing out water too fast before.
Just to confirm, when vacuuming to waste with the valve on the skimmer position and the drain off, whatever debris that gets through the skimmer basket, should bypass the pump and filter? I ask this because the pump basket gets debris when I vacuum this way. Is this normal?

 

[drharris]

Just to confirm, when vacuuming to waste with the valve on the skimmer position and the drain off, whatever debris that gets through the skimmer basket, should bypass the pump and filter? I ask this because the pump basket gets debris when I vacuum this way. Is this normal?

This is correct. Vacuum to waste has to get pumped through the pump first, and then exits to waste at the multi port valve.

 

[Fingaling]

Yup. No way to avoid the pump, but it won't clog up the filter at least.

 

[Pool Amateur]

Hey Fantastic news, the 2nd guy seems pretty good I would keep his phone #, I still do not understand the back and forth backwash-filter, if you ever talk to him maybe he can give rational and you could let us know, maybe something helpful, maybe not but that is why we educate ourselves then with that education can make informed decisions. There are several areas that not everyone agree upon, but I always try to go to the science. But he did good by figuring out the least expensive way to find and repair broken lines and new your system enough to get you to check the valve. Seems like a pretty good guy to me, but I will wait for his explanation before adopting that procedure. Cross off fixing clogged return on the to do list things are getting easier.

How is that FC level? What was PH prior to SLAM?

Any pics of the water, I am hoping to here (or see) blue and clearing any day, but I really believe that depends on killing all the crud on bottom. Brushing several times a day would be good but not always possible and not at the cost of aggravating that back. Tell honey Dr. Harris told you that, She should do it, so she won't come looking for me. Sorry Drharris somebody has to take the hit. LOL

 

[George D]

Yes, the 2nd guy is very knowledgeable and even more important, he's an honest guy. He was willing to come and fix the problem without charging me, even though they charge $125 per visit. If I remember correctly, he said to do the Backwash and straight to Filter for 10 seconds then Backwash and repeat 3 times, during the SLAM process. He said once the water started to clear up, to go back to the normal way of Backwashing. FC-28. CC-0. Another dark cloudy day in NY. PH prior to SLAM was around 7.0. The water is still murky. My wife scooped up a little debris and vacuumed but there is less and less debris every day.
I attached a pic. Not a pretty site.

 

[Pool Amateur]

Maybe just wishful thinking but I think water is lighter green as opposed to darker brown, I went back to compare but could not get pic up, I assume you were out of memory. If you search "posting pics using photobucket" on this site, there is a good tutorial how to do so, so that you can have quite a few pics up at the same time (I hate doing that, then I forget how and need to re-read, but pics are really worth a thousand words). But you have pics what do you think. In any event I think you are on the right track, keep brushing, Might even want to vacuum to filter once to see if you will need to backwash during vacuuming. If you do not then you are getting crud out and should get results soon. What is the pressure gauge reading now that you have all returns open. I recommend keeping all returns open for better circulation. If you have any eyeballs for those returns laying around might want to install and set up for good directional flow.

You mentioned above you have heaters, be sure the valves to the heaters are off. If you circulate high FC through copper pipes it will dissolve copper into water and in extreme cases could cause pipes to leak. If not sure of how to do this call Pool Pro that helped you. May be worth a trip back so he can take you and your wife through every phase of circulation so you know your system well.

 

[skimmerswimmer]

Hey Skimmerswimmer,
Just curious, what is the range of cost to replaster your pool, I have friend who has some significant damage, he said the guy who acid washed his pool said starting at 10K but could go to 15K depending on finish.

For me, I could get regular plaster for $8k or Pebble Fina for $11k, so I got the Fina because it is supposed to last longer and looks nicer with the sparkles from the "Shimmering Sea" additive. I decided to get all new equipment (pump, heater, filter, multiport, stenner pump), so it was like $15k for the reno.

 

[George D]

Ok, here's a pic of the pool as of May 31st. I'll take a look at photobucket.
After vacuuming to waste there is a need to Backwash afterwards as the returns slow down. The pressure gauge still reads around 22-23 PSI. I will check daily for any changes.
I didn't notice any copper pipes near the heater...just the PVC pipes for the lines. I'll look around for more.
Have you heard of Sparkle Up? It's a Filter Enhancer from Bioguard. The owner of the same pool store as the the pool pro that has helped me said it's better than DE. It's supposed to exit the filter during Backwashing making it better than DE.

 

[Pool Amateur]

Skimmerswimmer,
Thanks for info, sounds nice. I have been considering an upgrade too but just have too many other projects, I may start a new thread to see what you are going to do so I can keep collecting ideas. but I won't hijack this thread anymore. Sorry George the little detour.

George
You should not need to Backwash after vacuuming to waste as the filter is bypassed. Again try to understand your system and the flow of water, so it makes sense to you. If returns are truly slowing down then there may be a problem, but not an insurmountable problem, and I do not want to go down another rabbit trail and get you occupied doing something that is not as important as getting that water to turn blue. And to do that we need to get the crud off the bottom and out of the pool and kill remaining algae. The best and fastest way I know to do that is SLAM at proper level ( I personally would overshoot a few ppm if could not be there all day to keep testing and adding chlorine so that I would not drop below slam level, but there are others that I respect who say go to slam level only. As soon as I hear a good rationale to do it differently, I will change, but the rationale needs to make sense to me). Brush as often as you can, several times a day if possible. Vacuum to get crud out of pool (this can be done a few different ways, but I choose waste until I am sure I got most of the heavy organics out).

That being said, I do think it may be a good idea to do a standard backwash and see if returns increase in flow and if pressure changes.I am thinking your pressure should be about 15 psi, but that can vary depending on system and 22 may be your "clean filter pressure". This will give us another bit of info to keep putting the puzzle together

The copper pipes I am referring to are the heat exchanger pipes, inside the heater, all heat installations I know of have a valve to prevent the flow of water through the heater when not using the heater. That is why I suggested pool pro come back and give you an education, I do not mind paying a person to educate me if they are truly good, but as part of that education, I need the rational as to why. For example, If he can tell me why he does back and forth backwash/rinse and it makes sense when applied to the science I know, I would change, otherwise I am sticking to standard method because it makes more sense to me. The big theme of this site is education and application of that education. You can also trace your pipes, take pics and ask questions to learn your system, just takes a little longer, but it is free and you get more than 1 persons opinion.

I have heard of Sparkle up, if I remember correctly, it causes particles in water to clump together so filter can more effectively get them out, possible side effects, gums up filter and I do not know if it would gum up crud on bottom making it harder to get out. If I were in your position and were going to spend more money to try and hasten the process (and I was and I did), I would buy diesel fuel bags slightly modify and filter with those. If you want more info I will supply, BUT it is a luxury more than a necessity, in my opinion, a helpful tool when needed and I do not use DE in my sand filter.

 

[George D]

I only Backwash when I notice a significant decrease in the flow of the returns. The pressure gauge shows only a slight increase but right after the Backwash, all the returns flow with more pressure. I'm thinking that it's more important for the return in the deep end to have an increased flow than the shallow ones. A slight turn of the valve and the flow changes by a lot.
I'll find out more info about the heater but it looks like the PVC pipes coming from the heater, lead to the returns. It makes sense to me, so the heater pushes out warm water through the returns. Even more important that the deep return is back in play.
I'll avoid using Sparkle Up. Don't want to mess things up.
When I receive the Polyquat Algaecide, is it necessary to use at this point? The water looks slightly better to me than last week. I will brush this evening.
Is it better to brush before or after I add chlorine?
The owner of the pool store (not the knowledgeable guy who helped me) said that if I turn off the filter for 24 hours, I may be able to see the bottom of the pool, to see how much debris is left. I think it's a bad idea because it will interfere with the SLAM. Is that correct?
I'll be short on the R-871 chlorine reagent for the K2006 test kit. Is it alright if I order extras from Amazon?

 

[Mr Bruce]

a) I would double check that the pressure gauge is accurate. Here's a nice one TFTestkits.net or in a pinch one from from a Lowes/Home depot will do. Lots of times gauges left in the cold of winter will stop working correctly. Significantly less flow sounds like more than a "slight" increase in pressure. It should go to 0 when the pump is off.

b) I would skip the PolyQuat and just focus on bleach.

c) Brush after adding chlorine

d) Correct. You want any dead algae + whatever to be stirred up in the water to be filtered out.

Also

If I remember correctly, he said to do the Backwash and straight to Filter for 10 seconds then Backwash and repeat 3 times, during the SLAM process

sounds like non-sense to me. I would backwash until clear, RINSE until clear, then back to filter. Always turn the multiport the same direction!

I don't take any advice from pool store people, fwiw

 

[Pool Amateur]

Good stuff, great questions, you are catching onto this thing, will be an expert by the time your done. I agree with Mr. Bruce

The reason (I believe, or the reason I was going to say check your gauge) is because a backwash should decrease your pressure not increase it, because you just got rid of all the dirt in your filter the water runs through with less resistance.. So something not quite right. However I have had that happen a few times, when it did, I would turn pump back off wait a minute and turn back on and it would always go back to 15 (my clean filter pressure). I always though because it was a cheap gauge, I think I may take Mr. Bruce's advice and buy one from TFTestkit.com. They have a special promotion going on, free shipping on orders over $70. Running low on reagents, they have best prices for volume I have found, and I usually get my order in 2 days. (no, I have no financial interest).

all the returns flow with more pressure

OK this can make sense because less dirt in filter, more water getting through.

I'm thinking that it's more important for the return in the deep end to have an increased flow than the shallow ones. A slight turn of the valve and the flow changes by a lot.

The valve should almost have a detente when they seat properly in a position, maybe a slight dirt back up at valve. I believe I read Swampwoman say to move the valve back and forth a little with pump on to try and clear, but wait til she chimes in, I PMed her and asked to to look into this thread if she has time.
I would like to see even flow on all, but I do see some logic in having more flow in deep end.

I'll find out more info about the heater but it looks like the PVC pipes coming from the heater, lead to the returns. It makes sense to me, so the heater pushes out warm water through the returns. Even more important that the deep return is back in play.

Great idea, In the plumbing I usually see, there is a valve to bring the heater online (bring water from pump through heater), then water coming out of pump into the main return line. But yours could be different and it is very important to know exactly what your system is and does so you can troubleshoot. Inside the heater where the heat is transferred to the water it is usually copper piping.

The owner of the pool store (not the knowledgeable guy who helped me) said that if I turn off the filter for 24 hours, I may be able to see the bottom of the pool, to see how much debris is left.

Not necessarily a bad idea in my opinion, If you turn off pump the circulation drops and some fine particles may fall to bottom and you may have more visibility, then be able to vacuum out. Yes it does interfere with SLAM a little, but not too much. I was actually going to suggest this but I figured I would wait a day or 2 to see if Swampwoman has time to get in here and comment. If you were early on in slam I would not advise it, but may be helpful at this point. My suggestion would be to do it at night not 24 hours.

 

[Pool Amateur]

Mr. Bruce,
Not to highjack this thread again but, I also have heard to only turn the multiport valve clockwise so as to not damage the spider gasket, and I do this. But I do not understand why turning the same direction should matter, when you depress the handle spider gasket is lifted up what difference does it matter? If you have any info on this I would like to find out answer. George take his advice to be on the safe side, I do this, just do not why.

 

[George D]

Mr. Bruce. What I meant to say, was when the flow of the returns slow down, the pressure gauge shows a slight increase in pressure....from 22-23 to around 25-26. After I Backwash and Rinse, the gauge returns to 22-23 and the returns flow much better. I just installed this liquid gauge recommended in one of the thread here. It goes to 30 PSI. I only turn the multiport valve one direction...clockwise. I never tried the other way.
Thanks Pool Amateur but I still have much to learn but I've learned a lot the past few weeks. I'll wait for advice from Swampwoman.
I'll post the test results now. FC-18. CC-1. I did not add chlorine yesterday. During the PH test, initially it showed 7.0. I added 1 drop of R-0006 and it showed 7.2. During the TA, the sample turned pink at 70. It stayed the same shade of pink until I stopped at 130. The test kit shows the color should change from green to red. Is turning pink good enough? If not then I have an extremely high TA. The CH sample turned light purple instead of red so it appears my CH is 0. CYA- between 30-35. I think this is good during SLAM because it lowers my shock level to about 12.
Is it ok to order more reagents for the Taylor k2006 from Amazon?

 

[Mr Bruce]

Mr. Bruce,
Not to highjack this thread again but, I also have heard to only turn the multiport valve clockwise so as to not damage the spider gasket, and I do this. But I do not understand why turning the same direction should matter, when you depress the handle spider gasket is lifted up what difference does it matter? If you have any info on this I would like to find out answer. George take his advice to be on the safe side, I do this, just do not why.

You know what, chalk this up to me just parroting what I've heard over the years. I just searched this forum and then the internet for 15 minutes and I can't find anything. This might be worth a side conversation with some folks who are more "hardware knowledgeable" than myself.

Great question and thanks for asking!

 

[Fingaling]

The polyquat won't hurt the slam and it *may* help by slowing down the growth rate of the algae. It's up to you if you want to use it and potentially spend the money for nothing. If it were me at this point I would because I would really want to swim and would try anything. If not, save it to winterize your pool. If you decide to use it, do it on a day when you're home as it may cause filter pressure to rise more quickly: poly quat is a mild clarifier/flock (like sparkle up) in addition to being an algaecide. If it's helping you may also notice an increase in the FC that you use up so you'll want to test a little more the day or two after adding it. The other benefit of polyquat is if you have some of the more resistant algae, it can help break them down. Polyquat interferes with cell walls and that's what makes yellow and black algae more difficult to kill them green algae.

22-26 is nearly a 20% pressure increase. Couple that with the fact that the filter will probably need a deep clean after this and I'm sure you're doing the right thing in that regard.

Happy to hear things are looking better.

 

[Fingaling]

Not to sound like a polyquat salesman. Or anything. Lol.