Help. First time pool owner in Nassau County, NY.

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Mr. Bruce,
Thanks for the search time, I may start another thread to try and find out this mystery question of life, Meantime I will continue to to only turn Clockwise until I find out.

George
I think this is good during SLAM because it lowers my shock level to about 12.
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Ph does not read accuratly when FC greater than 10, CYA does not matter, I am not sure about TA and CH. Since we have vinyl CH not a big deal (or so I have read) Mine usually is about 100 (just where it naturally falls). Now you are asking questions that show may amateur status, but that is good because it shows how much you are learning. I will leave the color changes and accuracy of TA and CH to someone who knows instead of venturing a guess.

Is it ok to order more reagents for the Taylor k2006 from Amazon?
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Yes it is, but I would check out TFTestkit.net, order 2 XL options, (If it is FAS-DPD reagents running low) a Speedstir, a 50ppm CYA standard and some CYA reagent. That will be over $70, get free shipping you should get it in 2 days (not guaranteed 2 day shipping but I always do, and you are in same region). I found they are best bang for buck. Dave, the person who started this does have an interest in this, but I do not. SO I figure best deal plus if it helps him and they support well, could even call an order and ask them about colors and accuracy, get answers to questions. Speedstir definitely makes testing soooo much easier. The 50 CYA standard is water with a known CYA of 50, mix it up, pour it to 50 and now you know what a positive test looks like, I ordered a second tube and mixing bottle also so I can have them side by side to compare.

Fingaling has some great points but I would hold off adding polyquat for a couple of days to see if Swampwoman checks in. She really is "The Expert" when it comes to turning swamps around, metals in pools and additives. Good info though, thanks Fingaling

Hows the back doing?
 
George, Pool-not-so-Amateur asked me to check in as well on this thread since I'm a fellow recovering black water swamper ;)

I have a few suggestions for consideration since you've been at this a good while. Take em with a grain of salt ;) But don't add polyquat right now...it fights chlorine a bit, and depending on what all else has been used in your water, can interact with other products and cause cloudiness. And while you can't undo it now, please, NO MORE copper Algaecides or other formulations until you're fully schooled in ramifications/situational use scenarios. ;)

But back to the suggestions:

First, I am suspicious of your "clean" filter pressure reading. Yes, pressure varries. But 22-23 seems high to me. We don't know what knd of stuff other folks have put in your filter 5 years ago. If your FC continues to hold nicely, why not consider giving the filter a deep clean on the weekend. I'd have expected more clearing by now. Search pool school for the link. You're basically just washing it out with a hose. You might want to check for a broken lateral.

Second, I am suspicious that you might have a lot more debris on the floor that you're getting with the net. Silty stuff too. Vacuuming blind and to waste, as you've seen, can cause clogs. Lets try to get the top levels of the water more clear so you can see better. Partly close your drain valve to do so, and let the skimmers do the work on the top half of the water. Every time you vac, you're mixing up the silt. Same with scooping. So its best to get everything you can in a few dedicated sessions, then try to let upper layer clear.

For your back...I used this cheap contraption with a garden hose... https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0020H42VY/ref=asc_df_B0020H42VY5020099/?tag=hyprod-20&creative=394997&creativeASIN=B0020H42VY&linkCode=df0&hvadid=167126215582&hvpos=1o3&hvnetw=g&hvrand=17322445889666687043&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=t&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9017527&hvtargid=pla-309740825020

In my swamp recovery, I got the top clear, then did a few slow vac to waste sessions. Clogged the pump basket about every 10 mnutes. Learned the hard way I should have vac'd with something like this: https://www.amazon.com/Hayward-W560-Navigator-Standard-Canister/dp/B000EW6EGI/ref=sr_1_1?s=lawn-garden&ie=UTF8&qid=1496885429&sr=1-1&keywords=hayward+leaf+canister

Last resort but faster would be renting a trash pump from home despot and pumping the bottom to waste, filling at same time, and never letting water get below a foot in the shallow end.

In extreme cases where FC is holding but silt not catching, you "can" floc, preferably with specifically Leslies Alum. TFP doesn't endorse floc because so many people have problems using it, etc., and normally chlorine does the job, but sometimes its preferable to draining. But in your case, floccing blind might be an issue because you still don't know what's down there, and you're still getting a feel for whether your filter is operating right or not, so lets revisit in another week if you're stalled but holding FC.

Though this doesn't appear to be a problem...in this knd of condition, don't let FC drop below slam..ever. But don't nuke the pool either...or it will fade your liner.

For clogs, if you get more, grab a drain king hose attachment at the hardware store suited to your pipe size. In this way you can "jet" clogs.

The pool guy who told you to backwash-filter-backwash was likely trying to get clogs moving with bursts of pressure. You can also do this by just toggling your skimmer and main drain valves back and forth a but. I have cleared a clog that way ;)

Lastly, I'm just sending you the clear water mojo. I know how exhausting this can be. Only you can judge how far you want to go, but with your back, the trash-pump partial drain might be easier for you physically. It may still turn out that your filter needs attention, etc., on one hand you might be only a cleaning away, or you might have a broken lateral, but don't hurt yourself hauling crud from the pool when there's something that will do much of that for you ;)

The objective is to get to use the pool, and either way, you'll still need to slam, but use the approach most sensible for you and don't worry if you need to change path a bit. Provided your filter checks out, and you avoid clogs, etc., you CAN get there without a trash pump. I did. But I was on a well, and was afraid of burning out the pump motor ;) If I knew then what I know now, I might have used a trash pump on the bottom just to expedite getting rid of the sludge..,20 wheelbarrows full ;)
 
Would turning off the pump and waiting possibly a day or two for the water to clear help?
Would it adversely affect the SLAM process? Would turning the valve towards the skimmers and almost turn off the drain better instead? You mentioned that it will clear the top but is there anything that can help me see the bottom? I taped a plastic bottle of water to the pole to get a sample of the water at the bottom of the deep end of the pool. It looked crystal clear.
Is it better to know how much debris is in the pool and where, before renting the trash pump?
 
Have a couple of questions about partial drain with trash pump because I still have a lot to learn and George can benefit too:
Can you pump down 2.5’ (about 1 foot from bottom of shallow end in my pool) without worrying about water table collapsing pool? When winterizing, pumping down to expose returns seems to be excepted practice (I have a low water table, and do not have to worry about water table).
I have used trash pumps to pump out basements and a friend’s pool (who was getting rid of it but had to get empty so the guy with bulldozer could take it out). The end of the trash pump has a crude sort of filter which is a cylinder about 6-8“ long and 4” round. The sides of the cylinder have holes probably about .5” diameter. So it cannot suck up leaves or sticks and in fact it was common for us, that leaves would cling to the outside of trash pump’s filter and we would have to pull it up an clean it, so we finally decided to suspend it in the middle and lower as pool volume lowered. The bottom of cylinder (that would sit on bottom of pool) is solid, which is a good thing because these pumps really create suction and if it sealed on the liner it could cause a hole.
So is it a good idea to once you have the trash pump’s hose in place on or near bottom, to start brushing the floor around that area vigorously to mix as much of the sludge as possible into the water and have it pumped out?
I assume the trash pump partial drain goals are:
1) To get the sludge off the bottom so we do not have to kill it and so it does not clog lines like our friend Flimflam 22 is experiencing.
2) Also diluting a little more effectively than vacuuming to waste then refilling But If I really wanted a water change over to get all the old chemicals out, I would try the tarp method after I got the organics out.
3) Get to see the bottom of the pool in shallow end and what is on it, but we will never see what is on deep end floor because we will still have 5’ of stirred up water in deep end. And there is really no easier access to the deep end (I guarantee you do not want to try and stand on the slope to get closer to deep end or you will be swimming in that crud). If in shallow end there are leaves, how do you easily get them up?
If there was some way to hook vacuum line to trash pump with a filter somewhat like the “leaf canister” but much larger volume, it would be a much better method but I am not sure it is worth all the trouble and expense.
I did somewhat like Swampwoman did, I raked up the debris, but after breaking 2 heavy duty leaf rakes I used a fishing net with a 3’ mouth and 4” square netting to get the leaves out hook the branches and slowly bring to surface where I could grab them, even got the grill that way. When I was done, there were very few leaves on bottom and I started vacuuming to waste using the skimmer basket as my filter. Yes the vacuum hose clogged frequently and was a pain to unclog at first but then went fast and then pool turned clear fast. It really was not bad after I got the leaves and grill out, and knew what I was doing. I never had a clog in the skimmer line If it got past skimmer basket it made it to waste. I did have to clean skimmer basket frequently at first also. If I had a plaster pool that I was sure I could empty without causing major damage, it would have been easier to drain entirely and shovel and pick up the stuff to get out. But I think Skimmerswimmer said when he had his pool drained for a re-plaster the contractor drilled 2 holes in deep end to be sure they did not damage even though he has low water table. So I guess my big question is: what great advantage is there to a partial drain on a vinyl pool?
 
George,
Would turning off the pump and waiting possibly a day or two for the water to clear help?
Would it adversely affect the SLAM process?
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Maybe overnight not days, in my opinion. Days, yes would adversely affect SLAM, a night, technically yes would slow things a little bit, but info gained by doing it may be worth it as plan could change with more info and find more effective way to deal with it.

Would turning the valve towards the skimmers and almost turn off the drain better instead? You mentioned that it will clear the top but is there anything that can help me see the bottom?
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I think Swampwoman recommended this so you would get better visibility as water rushing down drain may be excessively stirring up water making visibility worse. The reason bottle of water sample probably looked so clear is small sample size, not that bottom clear top dirty. Rather than do this I think I would turn filter off for a night maybe even night and day if I were to do a deep clean on filter. Also I believe toggling valve with pump on may help a clog go through the valve, but ask swampwomen to clarify before trying.

Is it better to know how much debris is in the pool and where, before renting the trash pump?
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Always better know as much as you can if practical, how are you going to determine how much and where?
 
Ok, Thanks for help Swampwoman and Pool Amateur and for posting the pics with the your progress.
I turned the pump off. I will turn it back on in the morning with the valve on full skimmer and main drain almost closed. I guess, slightly before the 9: position, because at 9, the drain would be completely off.
Just to confirm: No vacuuming or any other type of cleaning until I can see to the bottom?
 
Check it early in AM, if clarity not improved significantly, test, add chlorine if necessary, take a pic, then turn pump back on following Swampwomans directions above.

Rational for turning pump off at night, no sun to burn off chlorine and I believe algae needs sun to grow (not sure of that one). So less chance of going backward just slowed down pace of going forward.

Just to confirm: No vacuuming or any other type of cleaning until I can see to the bottom?
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If no change, I believe I would brush after you add chlorine, I also see no reason not to vacuum unless Swampwoman does not want to stir it up quite yet and would like to try her directions above.

If clear and you can see bottom, what do you see on bottom, and hear is wear you get to make some decisions, lots of debris you may want to try trash pump (but I will not recommend till I understand the significant advantage of that) However if Swamp woman says she would do it then I would probably do it, but ask why.(I know , I am a pain in the neck, but only way I know to learn).

If clear you could also very gently without stirring too much try and vacuum out the heavy silt places you can see. Or you could "
Yes, full skimmer, main drain almost closed. I will post a pic so you can see what happens IF your filter is operating properly.
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" as she wrote above before you turned your pump off (probably what I would pick).

Hopefully she has time to check in before tomorrow AM.
 

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Ok, do I turn the pump back on tomorrow morning no matter how the water looks? Just finished the Chlorine test. FC-18. CC- between 0-1, using 5ml instead of 10. I added 3 gallons of 12.5% liquid chlorine last night. I will do the same now. Is the best way to add chlorine to pour it quickly in the deep end or walk around and add slowly. With the pump off, I will do the latter.
At some point tomorrow, I will need to cut the pipes so I can access the sand filter and do a deep cleaning.
I read a few threads where it is not necessary to change the sand in the filter. Is this correct? Sand has been sitting for 5 years.
I will read up on laterals. How would I know if one or more are damaged? If damaged, do I need to repair before starting the pump and filter again?
Is there a type of method to remove debris with the trash pump? I think I read somewhere that the visquat method.
 
If I catch you before you add do not add tonight, if I do not go turn pump on and brush the pool. Here is why. When you add chlorine the best way to add is in front of return and pour it in a slow stream, for example about a quart in a min. (plus or minus 30 sec probably will not matter but longer is definitely better). This way the return takes the concentrated chlorine and disperses throughout the pool more evenly. Chlorine is heavier than water if you dump it in in one place it will sink to bottom and with no circulation will sit on bottom in concentrated form and can burn the liner. If you disperse it throughout the pool with pump off better but not good. This settlement test is to see if your water is clearing and we need to focus more on filter as well to see if you can locate how much debris is on bottom. My guess from last picture is it is not going to be clear because water is still green, which means to me you still have organics to kill and visibility will not be so good, but my guess could be wrong so we test to see. Swampwoman's test with the skimmers doing most of filtering is a test to see how your filter is doing. 2 different tests. I would have done hers 1st then if we needed to the "settlement test". also I do not remember your CYA level but think it is at 30. If it is your SLAM level is 12 and your mustard algae target is 19 and that is only supposed to be held for 24 hours at the max. If your CYA is 50 then SLAM target is 20 and mustard algae target is 30 and only for 24 hours at the max.
don't let FC drop below slam..ever. But don't nuke the pool either...or it will fade your liner.
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Seems to me you are getting closer to the nuke level, but again you could refresh your numbers here. When you post your results if you do so in this format it easy to read and find when we need to reference and on every page. It also keeps a permeant record if you ever wanted it:

FC -
CC -
pH
TA -
CH -
CYA -

If you did not test all parameters that day (and you should not when in slam) omit the test or better yet put last date it was tested so it gives someone reading a lot of info. Also when you say you are going to add 3 gallons it seems rather arbitrary than using Pool Math to hit a specific target.

Hope all this info helps.
 
Yes, I will have unions to reconnect the pipes. Thanks. I added 3 gallons slowly to all parts of the pool. I tested only for chlorine tonight. .
FC-17
CC- between 0-1.
CYA yesterday was between 30-35.
I didn't test for PH and TA tonight.
 
To inspect the laterals entirely you need to remove sand, Did you get to watch the video on deep clean, also a video on removing sand they are very good. There are differing opinions on whether or not sand goes bad. With the info I have read, I come down on the side sand really does not go bad. When my laterals broke the tube at the top broke so it was really easy to see when I opened up the filter. but the laterals are a long pipe down and at the bottom fingers projecting out. Google your filter and look at schematic. These fingers fold up so you can get them in and out of your filter. you visually inspect them for damage. If you find it damaged after removing sand, leave sand and laterals out of filter, put valve back on filter, turn multi port valve to "circulation" reconnect pipes and run pump. In this way it will keep chlorine circulating, and you will still be slamming. Then you can order new laterals and put them in when they come.
 
-- in your shoes, George, I'd just do the deep clean first.
I would not change the sand at all.

For the moment, keep the broken lateral in mind as a possible filtration issue. I mentioned it as a possibility to be cognizant of, but at this point I can't tell that you've cleared other slam issues for sure...eg. At such high pressure, I'm not sure you're getting good filtration. Hence the deep clean as a check ;)

Here's the deal...if you've faithfully kept your FC above slam level the whole time, and if you were filtering 24/7, your water should have cleared more by now...unless there's a ridiculous amount of sediment that is continually getting stirred up.

If you've been running with your drain valve open this whole time, you've been pulling that sediment back into circulation. That's why I wanted you to close down the main drain mostly and pull from skimmers. You need to do that for a few days to see if it helps clear.

But there may be other variables. You've used other products, including copper, which if oxidized in a slam, could add a green tint. We usually use color change as a visual indicator of slam progress, but in this case, also need to be cognizant of outliers.

So lets review a few things:

1. How many times a day were you testing and adding in the beginning?
2. Lately has it always been at or slightly above slam level when you've tested? Are you using pool math to figure out how to add just enough to keep it in slam range, but not a whole lot higher?
3. Post a pic and comment about the color change. Use my pic of color change as a guide.

Please post pictures daily, and rate of FC loss. That helps us give better guidance. Report your pressure after deep cleaning the sand, then backwash any time you're 25% above. Pull from the skimmers for a few days, to get top more clear...then you may test the returns by holding a cloth in front to see if they're blowing sand back into the pool.
 
Great post and great info Swampwoman, I would follow Swampwoman's advice to the letter and only do a deep clean today not remove sand and check lower laterals. Besides if there is no way to disconnect the valve from the plumbing besides cutting pipe it may be all you can handle today to do a deep clean. I have a hard time believing that the multivalve was plumbed so you have to cut pipe to take off, a call to the guy that fixed the broken return pipe may definitely be worth it, could even postpone deep clean until you find out.
 

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