Heating the pool

samjesse

Well-known member
Feb 14, 2020
66
Sydney Australia
Hi
Just moved in this house with the pool not heated. Available solar panels makes electrical pool heater a better choice for running cost. New $2500+ Heat pump is pricy, would an ebay item like this last me for 2 years or so?
It says: Min. flow rate is 20 GPM, Max. working pressure is 30 PSI, it does not give water temprature raise at max. flow volume.
What do you think?
 
Sure. All numbers are rounded. Also I switch around a bit from metric to imperial, so there might be easier ways to do it.

1 KW equals 3412 BTU/hr. So 9 KW equals about 31,000 BTU/hr. 1 BTU raises the temperature of 1 pound of water 0.56 degree C. 30,000 liters weighs roughly 66,000 pounds.

So 31,000 divided by 66,000 = 0.47. That's how much 9 KW increases the temperature of a 30k liter pool in degrees F. Multiply by 0.56 to get degrees C = 0.26. So I rounded it to 0.25 to easily calculate run time estimates.

Yes, I'm quite certain there is probably an easier way to do it. But then there would be less math, and what fun would that be? ?
 
If you want to do this all in SI (metric) units and noting that:
  • Specific heat of water is 4.189 kJ/kg*°C
  • 1 L of water = 1 kg (so 30,000 L = 30,000 kg of water
  • 1 kW = 1 kJ/s (so 9 kW = 9 kJ/s)
  • 1 hr = 3600 seconds
Then you have:
full


which is the same result as @Donldson, without going into imperial units.

If you want a faster number for your pool to size different heaters, then since I've already worked out the units for a 30,000 L pool just take the heater input in kW and multiply that by 0.0286 to get °C rise per hour. So for example if you had a heater twice as big at 18 kW, then 18*0.0286 = 0.515 °C/hr.
 
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0.25 degrees C an hour is very slow. I need a heater for 1-2 degreec C an hour. Is this too much to ask? even if I buy Pentair UTHP-9-HX for $3K AUD, still that will give the same resutls as the ebay cheap one since both are 9Kw. will NG gas heater do better? Any suggestions? :) Thanks
 
0.25 degrees C an hour is very slow. I need a heater for 1-2 degreec C an hour.
Then you need a heater of roughly 36-72 kW.

Is this too much to ask? even if I buy Pentair UTHP-9-HX for $3K AUD, still that will give the same resutls as the ebay cheap one since both are 9Kw.
It will give the same results, but will be a lot easier on your pocketbook to operate. ?

Heating times always correlate to heater output power. That said, the cheap eBay heater is a resistive heater. Resistive heaters output in heat exactly what they draw in power. So a 9 kW resistive heater outputs 9 kW of heat and uses 9 kW of electricity. This is usually always the most expensive way to heat a pool. What do you pay per kWh of electricity? I pay $0.11 per kWh, so that ebay heater would cost me $0.99 per hour to run.

The Pentair UTHP-9-HX is a heat pump. Heat pumps are a lot different than resistive heaters. They output more heat than the power they draw! This particular Pentair can output a maximum of 9.5 kW of heat, while drawing only 1.5 kW of heat. So essentially the same heating performance, but because it draws so much less power, it costs only 1/6th as much to run!

Heat pumps output more heat than the power they draw because they are not producing heat, they are moving it, hence the name "heat pump". They draw heat from the air around your pool and put that into your pool. They can even do this when the air temp is lower than the pool temp, just like an air conditioner takes heat from the cool inside of your house and puts it into the much hotter air outside your house. In fact, an air conditioner is a heat pump, though the name heat pump in common usage is usually reserved for devices that heat things rather than cool them.

Now, while it will pretty much always draw 1.5 kW, it won't always put out 9.5 kW. How much it outputs depends on the ambient and pool temps. That 9.5 kW is peak performance, at an ambient of 24 °C and pool water temp of 27 °C. If the ambient temp was cooler or the pool water temp was hotter the output would be lower than 9.5 kW.

If you can afford it, a heat pump is much preferable to a resistive heater (such as the eBay one), although you need a much bigger one to get the temp rise times you desire.

will NG gas heater do better?
Generally, yes, at least for temp rise (perhaps not operating cost though). In the USA, the biggest NG heaters you can get are rated at 400,000 Btu/hr input and 80% efficiency, so they output 320,000 Btu/hr. This is 94 kW output heating power, so a NG heater with this rating would give 0.0286*94 = 2.7 °C/hr temp rise in your pool.

How much do you pay for NG in Australia? Here in the USA, natural gas prices are pretty cheap, and so a NG heater is usually about on par with a heat pump in terms of operating cost. This depends on location and desired length of use, as in hot places heat pumps usually win out but in cooler places or extending the swim season into spring and fall a lot NG heaters win out.
 
If you want a faster number for your pool to size different heaters, then since I've already worked out the units for a 30,000 L pool just take the heater input in kW and multiply that by 0.0286 to get °C rise per hour. So for example if you had a heater twice as big at 18 kW, then 18*0.0286 = 0.515 °C/hr.
Please see the image for a heater, heating capacity 72K BTU/H or 21Kw, does How long will it take to raise the pool temp by 1 deg. C?
Heating Capacity 72000 BTU / 66000 pounds of water = 1.09 F which is 0.6 C
Is that correct?
 

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Please see the image for a heater, heating capacity 72K BTU/H or 21Kw, does How long will it take to raise the pool temp by 1 deg. C?
Heating Capacity 72000 BTU / 66000 pounds of water = 1.09 F which is 0.6 C
Is that correct?
Yes, 0.6 °C per hour is correct. It would take 1 hour 40 minutes to heat the pool 1 °C. Roughly speaking, since that is just the time to heat water. Likely it will always be a little slower as there will be heat loss from the pool itself.

One thing I never asked was solar. Why do you say solar is to expensive and you need to use a regular heater?
 
I've had the black plastic solar collectors running this season (southern hemisphere like you).

My pool ranges from 33c-37c !!
33c right now as we've had a week of mid-20s and cold nights.

Current late summer air temp ranges from 20-33c. Night time temps 13-19c.

Pump runs the water through the panels about 7 hours a day.
Pool is covered all the time (well apart from when we use it of course).

We may consider a heat pump next year when the colder days set in. But for now as you can see the solar panels make it into a hot tub.
All for running a small 0.5hp pump 7 hours a day which does all the tasks, filter SWG etc
 

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One thing I never asked was solar. Why do you say solar is to expensive and you need to use a regular heater?
Looks ugly, too many loops and turns to connect the roof tubes to the pool, not always available during cloudy or night, I have excess solar electricity "cost zero", the AustralPool heater I picked up for $1 but needs some fixing which I can do myself :)
 
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Since the SWG converts the salt to FC, which turns to CC which the sun evaporates, does that mean salt gets used up and needs to be always added? if so, with my salinity is too high, why not wait a while instead of draining and topping up with fresh/rain water?
 
How do you keep your CC near zero? since the sun is needed to evaporate it.

Very good question and shows my embarrassing ignorance as a fairly new pool owner.
Just reading up about CC. Thanks for making me aware. ( I really should have all the basic articles on this site).

I have basic test kits and have never measured the CC. I don't think we even have any drops here in Uruguay to measure the difference.
Do you recommend opening it to sunlight on good days to evaporate it while using the basic kits to keep the levels of TC between 1-3ppm? Just got the pentair strips and orthotolidine drops.


Luckily the pool has been used very infrequently since we got the cover. I use it a few times a week just late at night as a hot tub and cold beer. Kids are away for the summer.

Thanks

UPDATE: My local supplier do have the pentair 5-way strips than can measure the CC approx. Have to get some of those
 
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Looks ugly, too many loops and turns to connect the roof tubes to the pool, not always available during cloudy or night, I have excess solar electricity "cost zero", the AustralPool heater I picked up for $1 but needs some fixing which I can do myself :)
Hmm, I missed that you had solar PV panels already. How big is your array (kW) and how much excess do you typically have that you want to "use up" (kWh)?

How do you keep your CC near zero? since the sun is needed to evaporate it.
Since the SWG converts the salt to FC, which turns to CC which the sun evaporates, does that mean salt gets used up and needs to be always added? if so, with my salinity is too high, why not wait a while instead of draining and topping up with fresh/rain water?
Couple things here. First off, not all FC is converted to CC. Only some fraction is. I'm not an expert but it depends on the type of waste and FC levels. Some CC is hard for FC to break down, and UV light can assist with breaking down these "stubborn" CC's. However, you certainly don't need your pool uncovered all the time for this to happen. Additionally, a solar cover (clear plastic "bubble wrap") lets UV light through, along with heat from the sun, and if you are heating a pool, you should certainly have a solar cover installed. Leaving the pool completely uncovered means a lot of heat loss from evaporation, which the solar cover drastically reduces.

Secondly, a lot (but not all) of the FC is hypochlorous acid (HOCl). For the purposes of these basics, assume it all is. When you add salt, you add sodium (Na) and chloride (Cl) to the water. The SWCG takes the Cl ions and converts them to HOCl. When this HOCl bumps into waste, it oxidizes the waste, and you end up with just Cl floating around again. The SWCG takes this Cl and converts it back into HOCl and the cycle repeats. Salt is not "used up", it is recycled indefinitely. Since salt is not removed via evaporation or the sanitation process,it only is removed when water is removed via splashout or if the pool overflows or is partially drained during/after a rainfall.

Now, my knowledge gets a little flaky here, but CC's, which take many forms but are often some form chloramines (chlorine and ammonia bound together in various configurations), are not "evaporated" by the UV. The chemical bonds between the chlorine and ammonia are broken apart by the energy of the UV light, hopefully allowing the ammonia to get broken down by FC into plain old nitrogen instead of staying bound together in CC. Once these bonds are broken by the UV, you again end up with Cl ions floating around, which the SWCG again recycles into new FC (HOCl).
 
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how much excess do you typically have that you want to "use up" (kWh)?
Approx 15kWh/day
22 GE panels 340w
How much would that give me in degrees? My calculation tells me that the "free" 15kWh/day gives 0.43 degrees C in pool water temp. raise, Is that right?

a solar cover (clear plastic "bubble wrap") lets UV light through,
My cover is gray bottom bubbles with blue top, will any UV light go through?
 
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