Hayward W3AQR15 Woes

[southwest_austin]

Hi TFP homies!

I love this community - I follow the methods here to maintain my pool and its chemistry, and I've done some significant upgrades and changes to the pump, filter, added a heater bypass and added a SWG. This site has been an invaluable resource.

So I bought my SWG just about 2 years ago... I saw the Hayward W3AQR15 on Amazon for $1100 - what a steal! So I installed the thing while I was redoing my plumbing for some other upgrades.

It was awesome for about 2 years, then despite taking it apart and cleaning off the occasional scale per the Hayward instructions, it kept reading a low salinity level. I took the cell in to the one Leslie's location here in Austin, TX that has a cell tester and they called me and told me they ran the test twice, and the cell is bad.

So today I talked to the store manager, and they looked at my Amazon receipt date and gave me a brand new SwimPure Extreme TCELL940SWP - nice! However, I have no documentation of the swap - no proof of purchase for the new cell.... very unusual to me, but I was stoked to walk out of there with what seems like an even better cell. It seems unlikely that I will have another short-lived cell after hearing of people on here regularly mention keeping theirs going for more than 5 years. It seems unlucky that my cell died just under the 2-year mark. I generally kept it at about 20% in the winter and maybe 50% in the hottest part of summer. I do run the pump 24/7 at a low speed year-round.

So I brought the shiny new cell home, moved the switch on the panel to OFF, swapped my dummy cell for the new cell, plugged in the cord, and flipped the switch to Auto. To my horror, I'm getting the same symptoms of a bad cell as before

I start it up and the "Generating" light comes on, I hear the relay click, then after a minute or so, I get both solid Check Cell and Check Salt lights. While the system is on and generating during that minute, I see an instant salt level between 1500 and 1600 ppm and amps start around 4.58 or so, then drop steady down to 4.39ish...pretty much the same in both polarities.

I tested with my Taylor kit at 3000 ppm. Pool Chemistry seems fine - FC 2, CC 0, pH 7.6, TA 80, CH 390 - I keep my CYA at about 50, but I haven't checked it since earlier in the summer.

Output from diagnostics when relay clicks on for first polarity: 1500, 88, 27.9, 4.39, 49P, -1600, AL-3, r1.59, t-15
Output from diagnostics when off: 1500, 88, 32.4, 0.00, 49P, -0, AL-3, r1.59, t-15
Output from diagnostics when relay clicks on for second polarity: 1500, 88, 27.9, 4.44, 49P, -1600, AL-3, r1.59, t-15

It sure seems like the same symptoms as before - like a bad cell - I don't think my instant salinity number was that low before, but I didn't write it down before I took the cell in for testing - (if I recall correctly the salinity was showing 1800 and the amp draw was at a low 5.x number) - the same error lights after a minute or so.
The low average salinity is because the hayward support dude had me reset the average salinity (which I had already done following their service manual procedure).
It also seems like maybe the instant salt level that it's reading is maybe half what it should be - maybe exactly half given the normal margin of error - I wonder if that's a clue as to what is happening here.

I'm somewhere between mediocre and decent at soldering and doing electronics repairs, so if there were some suspect component that I could replace, I'd be up for trying to fix it. I'm thinking about shutting down the breaker and taking a closer look at the board for anything obvious.

I opened a case with Hayward - the guy seems to think it's a bad motherboard after going through his process. The tech support guy was super cool. He seems to think he can order me a new one, but until I get a tracking number, I know there's a chance they could come back and say it's not under warranty - not "professionally" installed, Amazon is not an authorized Hayward dealer, etc as I've seen others have reported around the web. I remember considering this risk when I bought the unit, but the Hayward system seems well-liked by members here and at that price I couldn't pass it up.

What do you guys think? Could I have received a defective brand new cell? Is there some known component failure that would cause salinity to show up as half what is expected? Something else that I haven't thought of?

I figured I'd post my troubles here in case someone else can benefit from it in the future as I have benefitted from so many other threads when going through all of the other fun adventures of pool ownership.

Thanks in advance to anyone who has any suggestions.

-George

 

[NWMNMom]

Do you have a bad limiter? It's just a tiny module that results in the system throwing that sort of error

 

[southwest_austin]

Do you have a bad limiter? It's just a tiny module that results in the system throwing that sort of error

Hello! Thanks for the reply - I've been all over the forums and google, and these symptoms seem to indicate dirty cell or worn cell. I haven't seen any threads dealing with the limiter with symptoms like mine.
I wonder if it's worth schlepping the new cell back to Leslie's to test - just as a sanity check.

 

[bbillingsley1985]

Are you certain the cell was installed "upside down" if installed horizontally? I only say that because I have a vsp and when I installed my t15 cell I did not invert it originally. I seemed to be having the same issues (reading salt around the 1500 range when in actuality it was 3000-3200) until I changed it. At fast speeds it will still work out right side up but if you recently switched vsp/started running at lower speeds, and that's not upside down, it will definitely cause low salt readings.

 

[southwest_austin]

Are you certain the cell was installed "upside down" if installed horizontally? I only say that because I have a vsp and when I installed my t15 cell I did not invert it originally. I seemed to be having the same issues (reading salt around the 1500 range when in actuality it was 3000-3200) until I changed it. At fast speeds it will still work out right side up but if you recently switched vsp/started running at lower speeds, and that's not upside down, it will definitely cause low salt readings.

Thanks for the tip. I noticed with the new product literature for the new cell they recommend the inverted setup horizontal. I did indeed invert my unit as part of my troubleshooting process. I'm going to try it at full blast as well just in case it makes a difference.

No news from Hayward yet. Fingers crossed.

 

[southwest_austin]

So I'm still stuck with a broken SWCG
I honestly would be very hesitant to recommend anyone get the Hayward SWCG unit after my experience -- especially for the type of people I see posting here who are willing to do the work on their pool themselves.
I kind of wish I would have gone with the Circupool unit or another brand now. I bought the Hayward thinking that the build quality might be better, and I considered the ability to integrate it with future automation.
I never expected I would need to invoke my warranty. I expected to get a few years out of the cell and then replace it every few years as time goes on.

Hayward responded on my case that they ordered a new motherboard for me on September 2. They sent a follow-up email on September 28 after not responding to my emails for a few weeks that it's still backordered and no ETA.
While I appreciate them honoring the warranty for a mere homeowner that bought the unit on Amazon and installed it, it doesn't do me much good to have a warranty if they can't make parts available.

I took the cover off the control unit yesterday, and I don't see anything obviously burned or damaged. Supposedly the 1.59 board doesn't have the thermistor issues from previous revisions.
I followed the "Troubleshooting the Main Board" section of the "Further Reading" resource here, and it seems to indicate that my main board is good with 32VDC and correctly reversing polarity to -32VDC, and indicates that I should troubleshoot the cell.

I'm starting to think maybe the Hayward support guy got it wrong, and my brand new replacement TCELL940SWP is a lemon. I'm going to take it up to the only Leslie's in town with the cell testing equipment this week. Will keep the thread updated for any new developments.

If anyone has any bright ideas for anything I could check on the board, I'm pretty handy with a multimeter for basic stuff, but it seems like everything is operating correctly, it's just sensing a lower salt level/current (about half) from what my Taylor salt test kit indicates.

 

[ajw22]

@JamesW thoughts?

 

[JamesW]

The circuit board is probably fine.

The problem is probably a bad cell, the wrong cell or the salinity is what it is reporting.

Take the cell and a bottle of water to a store that can test cells and have them test the cell and the water.

Can you show pictures of the cell including the model and serial number?

 

[JamesW]

Count the number of plates in the cell.

T-15 has 13 Titanium Plates, 150 x 63mm. Produces 1.47 lbs/day.

T-9 has 13 Titanium Plates, 101 x 63mm. Produces 0.98 lbs/day.

T-5 has 7 Titanium plate, 150 x 63mm. Produces 0.735 lbs/day.

T-3 has 7 Titanium Plates, 101 x 63mm. Produces 0.53 lbs/day.

There is a white plastic grill that you can see in the inlet, so you have to look past that to see the metal plates, which are silver or dark grey.

Check for scale.

Can you show pictures looking into each end of the cell?

 

[JamesW]

It also seems like maybe the instant salt level that it's reading is maybe half what it should be - maybe exactly half given the normal margin of error - I wonder if that's a clue as to what is happening here.

What sample size are you using?

Are you sure that you are doing the test correctly?

Have the salinity tested two different reliable ways.

Never rely on a single test for salinity.

 

[southwest_austin]

UPDATE: I'm generating chlorine now! What a relief!

Thanks @JamesW for reaching out to help troubleshoot. The Taylor test kit does have some weird instructions that can cause you to do the test wrong (it says "fill 25mL sample tube to 10mL mark" which if you aren't paying close attention could cause you to use 2.5x the amount of water), but I was pretty confident in my salt level since I was successfully generating chlorine for two years and I haven't done any big changes with my water or anything.

I took the brand new TCELL940SWP to the only Leslie's in town that has the Hayward test machine and this time I got to watch him run the test. The first test came back that he didn't mix the water right.
The Leslie's manager seemed quite sure that the cell would test good (it was new and sealed when I got it) and that I likely had a bad motherboard as the Hayward tech diagnosed over the phone.

"Replace Cell" was the result despite the cell producing bubbles in the salt water he mixed up. I suspect something was broken and only half of the plates were engaged or something - I'm not really sure how the current delivery/sensing part of the circuit works.

The Leslie's manager just handed me a brand new box without a word and when I thanked him he said "see ya" - no paperwork, no nothing. The guy was kind of grouchy, so I am going to just register the new cell online and hope this one lasts and that Hayward can work with me based on manufacture date in lieu of a receipt if I have any issues - I don't guess I'm entitled to more than the 1 year that's left on the original warranty - I'm due for some good luck with this thing after this headache. I still ended up with the longer life version of the cell, which is a pretty big win - especially seeing how much prices have risen on these things since I bought mine two years ago.

Kind of a bummer that the other cell passed QC - I would think that Hayward would test them as they come off the line, but I realize some non-zero rate of defects will slip through.

So if anyone finds this thread and is dealing with the same thing - seeing all indications that their Hayward Aquarite controller is producing the correct voltages when following along with the excellent troubleshooting resources here - there is some non-zero chance that a brand new cell could just be bad right out of the box.