Has Anyone Used Metal Trap or Pool Refresh from Hydro Pure?

[captjohn]

I get mild tan colored staining on my fiberglass pool. I use citric acid which works fine and have tried a few different metal treatments with limited success. Probable pool boy error (that be me). I've been reading several threads and listen to what you guys have to say. I haven't mastered the metals issues, YET! I have well water but haven't had it tested yet. From what I read, testing pool for metal can be hit or miss. My pool is under roof so no rain water in pool so all add water is from well. I came across some products by Hydro Pure Tech.
1st- "Metal trap" filters to remove metals from fill water. They also say you can recirculate pool water through the filter with a submersible pump to remove metals. They say it has a special media. Sounds like a good idea to me.
2nd- "Pool Refresh" is a new 2 part product that claims to drop metals to the bottom to be vacuumed and/or filtered out. Its not on their website yet but I found it on askalanaquestion.com. Its about $80+ to treat 10k gal.
3rd- "Liquid Metal Trap" which "alan" says is a "true chelating agent" which he says I need. I've seen the sequestran vs chelatant threads. All kinds of retail claims out there.
My pool is balanced but the calcium is around 110. I read somewhere that stain is less likely with a higher 200 CH.
I'm trying to find a way to use less sequestrant/chelatant. The once a month or bi weekly maintenance doses don't seem to work. I may not have enough initial dosage or need to use more for maint. Maybe I need to look for a test for sequestrants.
I've heard from Jason and Pool Geek on previous post's and I thank you.
Thanks for any opinions.

 

[Beez]

Here is a recent review of Metal Trap.

 

[captjohn]

Thanks for the link. I searched but I used a different keyword. I tested my well water with a test strip kit from Lowes (I know we don't like strips) but for $10 it was worth a shot. It showed little to no Iron or Copper and my water is very soft here in the south. I'll test pool after I add citric acid and before I add sequestrants. I think I'll start keeping my ph in the low 7's and keep fc at the best guess #'s as best I can.

 

[geekgranny]

I have a constant battle with iron staining from the silt and dust that enters the pool. I, also, have calcium scale, on my blue plaster, that wasn't totally removed with the thrid acid wash in 2008. I continued to have unbalanced metals in the pool, causing more calcium scaling, until discovering TFP in summer 2009. I purchased a "PreFresh" filter, for the spa, a couple of years ago, from Spa Depot, but it only has about 8K water volume life. I don't know if it worked or not but when I did research our "city" water supply, and had the tap water tested there was no measurable iron content in the water. So unecessary purchase.

I keep sequestrant in my pool at all times, for iron, calcium scale release, and hopefully to lighten the copper stain some (will take years) and keep the pH at 7.2 as much as possible. I haven't been using a sequestrant test, and only keeping a "lot" of sequestrant in pool, using guesstimation. It keeps the iron staining pretty in check, but not totally. When the pH reaches 7.5 the iron staining on scale in shallow end begins to show up. In my pool, the iron rarely stains the plaster, rather the calcium scale. It's really easy to see as the calcium scale is white and the plaster is blue.

So..... I decided to try a different sequestrant for a while, Jack's Magenta, which is more expensive than the HTH Metal Control I get from Walley World, which has been effective at slowly releasing the calcium scale. I'm not sure if it is doing much for the copper stains, from way too many years using Ionization (no algaecides ever used except for during the AA treatment last year so no copper other than from Ionizers)

I, also, decided that I would probably save money, in the long run, by ordering the Jacks Sequestrant Test kit. A case of JM and test kit are on the way right now. The test kit can be found for $65-95 online.

Get that water tested properly. It could save you some trouble and money depending on the results of a good test. The results will arm you better with knowledge to battle those stains.

Note that I said above that the faint iron staining begins to show when the pH rises close to 7.5 and even more so when it gets a little higher than that. It is most apparent on the scale in shallow end where the dust/silt settles for a few hours between cleaner runs, twice daily for a few hours each cycle and frequently one more cycle mid afternoon.

I'm switching to Jacks Magenta to see if, over time, I might see an improvement in the copper staining. Cooper "loves" plaster but doesn't much attach to plaster scale. The AA treatment I did last fall may have exacerbated the extensive copper staining. I can't risk doing another acid wash on this 14 yr old plaster that is still in remarkable shape, even after three acid washes.

gg=alice

 

[geekgranny]

BTW.... for what it is worth, I'm keeping my CSI between minus 0.30 to minus 0.40, but most usually hovering right around -0.30. I'm afraid to go much lower than that, for extended period of time, with my old plaster. But I don't freak when it goes lower for what ever reason. It will settle out to my "norm" in a few days. I keep a small fountain going the whole time pump is running 21/7 so that tends to raise the pH pretty quickly. All of the returns are directed so that a little ripple is on water surface. This helps direct surface debris to the Pool Skim but does add to the rise in pH some. BTW.... the pump is running at 19 gpm, most of the time. It's a VF and uses between 200-300 watts depending on how clean or dirty the filter is. Aquabot runs about 8 hours, during two cycles, filter and moving about 3K gal/hr; more when I do the mid afternoon cycle. So water is moving well at low cost. Bottom drain always open to aid circulation too.

gg=alice

 

[captjohn]

Thanks for the info. I'm getting fairly good at basic pool chemistry and working on learning about staining. I've learned it's an expensive problem but I plan to learn to keep costs down. My stains on fiberglass are rough and tan but after the citric acid dosing (4#s for 15k gal. - 50# for $100 delivered from my local chem. supply house) the stains are gone and the finish is mostly smooth again and water sparkles. It's amazing that so much minerals are in the crystal clear water to put a layer down when I make a mistake in chemistry! The citric is cheap but the sequestrant and chlorine usage after treatments cost $'s. I don't use anything to raise PH since my pool has lots ways to airate.
I'm debating going to a SWG. It should keep a stable chlorine level without the ups and downs and my PH is usually pretty stable. Wondering if it would help lessen the staining since higher chlorine and ph levels seem to bring them on.
As I read the threads, I'm sorry to hear that lots of people have the same problems.

 

[geekgranny]

Thanks for the info. I'm getting fairly good at basic pool chemistry and working on learning about staining. I've learned it's an expensive problem but I plan to learn to keep costs down. My stains on fiberglass are rough and tan but after the citric acid dosing (4#s for 15k gal. - 50# for $100 delivered from my local chem. supply house) the stains are gone and the finish is mostly smooth again and water sparkles. It's amazing that so much minerals are in the crystal clear water to put a layer down when I make a mistake in chemistry! The citric is cheap but the sequestrant and chlorine usage after treatments cost $'s. I don't use anything to raise PH since my pool has lots ways to airate.
I'm debating going to a SWG. It should keep a stable chlorine level without the ups and downs and my PH is usually pretty stable. Wondering if it would help lessen the staining since higher chlorine and ph levels seem to bring them on.
As I read the threads, I'm sorry to hear that lots of people have the same problems.

That is great that you got rid of the staining and roughness. As to the chlorine levels, when I do my guesstimate additions of bleach, usually every two days, if I go much over the high end of target, which does happen often but not much over and I haven't made an MA addition first I will get two things, the light tan pretty quickly appears and the bleach clouds the pool. It goes from perfectly clear to cloudy to that I can't see the bottom. Upon MA addition, according to Pool Calculator, within a couple of minutes the water clears back up. I usually do these additions while the Aquabot is running so there is a great amount of circulation. I reported on one post that the water would clear within twenty minutes, but last night it cleared in less than 5 minutes. If I didn't bring the pH back down to 7.2 it would probably never clear no matter how much circulation there was; been there, done that. I usually wait at least an hour between MA and bleach so if bleach goes in first I have to "put up" with the clouding for an hour or more. Now that I know exactly what causes the coulding I don't have to worry about it. :-D

I don't have an SWG. But from what I can gather from reading one should expect a more constant FC level. You're going to really have to stay on top of the pH though as that is one of the main things people seem to have to keep on top of, even without aeration raising pH anyway and without any metal issues.

I don't always check my pH every day. If I went more than every other day, which I've done a few times, the above issues are more prominent. I really should be testing and adjusting pH every day, at least once/day or better still, twice/day.

What appeals to me more than more constant FC level, and the high initial cost of an SWG, as my FC is really pretty predictable and I'm here virtually round the clock, would be an auto acid injector. I know nothing about them but I'm going to check into it. In my case I will always have to doing something for the iron that enters the pool from silt/dust. Maybe, when the pool needs to be replastered go with a color that exactly matches the iron staining. :lol: And then do some kind of filled pool mild acid treatment, AA or CA, a couple of times a year.

I am thankful that our water does not have iron. That would really complicate things as I usually have to put from .5 to 1 inch in daily due to evaporation, due to sun/heat/wind.

The SWG may just be the ticket. I bet you'll get some more comments coming soon.

gg=alice

 

[captjohn]

The PH/CL auto control would be nice. I'm looking at the Auto Pilot systems but the total control system is $1700 more than the SWG
I test my cl/ph daily with the basic OTO/Phenal Red set and use the TF100 monthly unless I make an adjustment. I'm having trouble finding the polyquat 60 in town so I'll have to wait for a delivery from my chem. supplier tomorrow to do the stain thing again. I never used an algaecide because the pool is under roof but I'm going to try using it now.

Beez hooked me up with a thread of a test done on the Metal Trap filter. It did remove metals, about -.5 to -1ppm from 1.5ppm source water so I wonder what it will do for recirculating pool water. If 1 pass lowers 1.5 to .8 what would another pass do when the .8ppm water hits it. I may invest in the 25k or 50k and hook it to a small submersible pump and let it run for a few days. They also sell a Pure Start 1 micron filter that's much less expensive but it's basic filtration technology. If I do it, I'll post results but it may be a few weeks.

 

[Beez]

Beez hooked me up with a thread of a test done on the Metal Trap filter. It did remove metals, about -.5 to -1ppm from 1.5ppm source water so I wonder what it will do for recirculating pool water. If 1 pass lowers 1.5 to .8 what would another pass do when the .8ppm water hits it. I may invest in the 25k or 50k and hook it to a small submersible pump and let it run for a few days. They also sell a Pure Start 1 micron filter that's much less expensive but it's basic filtration technology. If I do it, I'll post results but it may be a few weeks.

Please do post back with results! I also have iron problems so I try to stay abreast of possible solutions.

 

[JasonLion]

A 1 micron filter won't normally remove any of the metals in the water. The metals are usually dissolved, so not subject to normal filtering. A standard filter will only work when the iron is in suspended grit rather than dissolved. The Metal Trap filter removes metals with a chemical reaction that bonds them to the filter, so they don't come out the other side. Eventually they get full of metals and need to be replaced. Greensand filters are the best at removing iron, but they tend to be expensive.