- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Did you write up on the forum somewhere how to accomplish that? I'd like to read about it.
Hacking IntellipH to work in cold water
- Thread starter Dirk
- Start date
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I don't see red in your key. Is that just an at-a-glance guide for reference, or does your system react to those min-max thresholds?
I see the dose, and the corresponding pH reaction. Very cool. I don't use acid demand testing for anything. I threw that Taylor test away, so I don't really even know what it is. I figured it helps determine how much acid to add? Why would acid demand be trending down before the dose? Seems like it would be on the rise, then plummet to zero right after the dose. And what caused demand and pH to spike at 8? Is that when the pump came on (no readings while pump is off)?
Edit: Oh, I think I see. pH was falling so demand was, too. My pool doesn't do that, pH is constantly on the rise.
This can use the tank, pump, chlorinator, and dovetails with your EasyTouch to get this done. The sensors I use are the Atlas Scientific Industrial pH and ORP sensors. Several folks are using the lab grade versions as well. Those are comparable to the ones you get with most of the other pool chemistry controllers.
github.com
DIY REM Chem Controller
An application to control pool equipment from various manufacturers. - tagyoureit/nodejs-poolController
github.com
- May 23, 2015
- 25,693
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
You can leave one on my doorstep and I’ll happily put it up for sale on eBay …. as the old saying goes -
“There an ... @Dirk … born every minute …”
Perhaps it can be used in the kitchen to dispense milk … no need to keep Bessie fed.
Those are setpoints on the controller. I chose not to include them on the display but the boundaries create alerts when the pH falls out of that range. The system is also continually calculating CSI and LSI.
Yes the system will based on its monitoring dose just the amount that is needed to push the pH below the setpoint. So in that instance it ran the pump long enough to dose 150mL. Later in the day it will probably dose one more time to and that will be in the 4 mL range. I think you may be surprised that at what your pH is doing throughout the day. I certainly was. The other thing that would probably shock you is that adding chlorine has a immediate effect of shooting the pH waaaaaaay up but only for a while. You can actually witness the conversion of sodium hypochlorite to hypochlorous acid. This reaction takes several hours until it settles back into the original pH minus the addition of pH 8+ solution.
I have a suction side cleaner run that runs in the morning and as it is sucking stuff off the bottom the pH will rise a bit. This cleaner run occurs with the SWG off so as it runs stuff into the filter and doesn't pick up more stuff off the bottom, the pH lowers a bit. During this time the chem controller is suspended so that it isn't trying to dose demand based on the water being sucked off the plaster. As soon as the SWG starts doing its thing there is upward pressure on the pH and the pH slowly rises. I have found that because I only dose what it needs the TA can be lower and I do not have to worry about buffering pH.
When I started this journey I had a TA of 240ppm and scale everywhere. It only takes a few days with high pH and scale starts to form with the type of evaporation I have here and of course its difficult when you have other things going on to be on top of it. No matter how much cleaning the tile always ended up white and dull with crust forming around the spillway. Now there is no sign of scale.
Alright so cue the Noise... if you want to come by to test and dose, I'll leave cookies on the pad but I will have to hook up an EasyBake oven to a microcontroller so they are nice and hot when you arrive. My most recent toy is working out a soil moisture demand for my blueberries, peaches, citrus, and palms.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Interesting, about how pH moves around based on the other activities. That's expected, of course, especially from the SWG/chlorine, but even cleaning, too, huh. I think I mentioned in another thread that I would be nervous trusting acid dosing to digital testing, but I guess it's just a matter of better understanding the system's capabilities. I noticed on GitHub how you added a lot of safeguards. I like the sound of that. Do you ever test manually to verify your system is working correctly? If so, how often?
I did it a lot in the beginning and everybody does. However, you start to realize that it is so utterly redundant. The accuracy on the probe is so very good. I tested repeatedly with 2 different test kits and another probe.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I thought I read that ORP can't be trusted in a saltwater pool running CYA at 70-80. Are you using the ORP component, or just the pH?
ORP is a funny duck. You really need to know what your pool is telling you. The reason is that when you test your FC then determine how much chlorine you need you dump it in and assume that it is instantly ready for sanitation. However, chlorine goes through some interesting gymnastics to get to the HOCl and OCl- which is where it will end up and also what is being test with ORP since these compounds are the workhorse for sanitation. ORP is also testing its standard over a very short time window so if you have a large amount of CYA in the water you can end up with lower detectable amounts of HOCl because CYA binds with some of the hypochlorous acid making it not seen by the probe. The Cl- is really inconsequential if you have good sanitation.
So if you know what your CYA is and the relative temperature of the water you have a very good idea as to what your ORP should be to keep the FC levels up and can bump the percentage on your SWG. Bear in mind the addition of liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) can take more than a day to get to HOCl floating around in the water. This is true with a SWG as well since it is producing hypochlorite ions from the salt in the pool. So for me if I keep a 500+mV reading when the water is cold and a 700+mV reading when the water is warm, then my FC will be between 4 and 5ppm. It's just how it works out in my pool with my water and CYA ~40.
When an amperometric probe comes available that doesn't require cutting off a limb and has a long calibration time, REM Chem will get its support. As of yet the ones used in industrial processes are finicky and require too much calibration. This is simply because they were initially made for monitoring the levels used for cleaning chemicals in food processing and packaging. Water processing plants are using them now, so new generation specs will more closely match our needs in the future.
So if you know what your CYA is and the relative temperature of the water you have a very good idea as to what your ORP should be to keep the FC levels up and can bump the percentage on your SWG. Bear in mind the addition of liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) can take more than a day to get to HOCl floating around in the water. This is true with a SWG as well since it is producing hypochlorite ions from the salt in the pool. So for me if I keep a 500+mV reading when the water is cold and a 700+mV reading when the water is warm, then my FC will be between 4 and 5ppm. It's just how it works out in my pool with my water and CYA ~40.
When an amperometric probe comes available that doesn't require cutting off a limb and has a long calibration time, REM Chem will get its support. As of yet the ones used in industrial processes are finicky and require too much calibration. This is simply because they were initially made for monitoring the levels used for cleaning chemicals in food processing and packaging. Water processing plants are using them now, so new generation specs will more closely match our needs in the future.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Somewhere I posted, you might have seen, my wish-list vision: some sort of module in the pool itself (instead of in the pad plumbing), that would not be filter pump dependent, that would monitor everything we'd like monitored: temperature, pH, FC, and whatever else could get thrown in. These are needs that virtually every pool has, and most pool owners would want (whether they know it yet or not).
I've got a write up coming describiing how I've got the first component covered (temperature). But it can't really be retrofit (I just happened to luck out that my pool could accommodate the sensor), it would have to be something installed during the pool build, similar to a light niche, where the guts could be upgraded/replaced/repaired as needed. Based on available history of pool technology evolution, I expect this technology to emerge any day now, you know, sometime in the next 100-150 years... Of course, pools will be outlawed before then, due to lack of water, but a guy can dream.
I've got a write up coming describiing how I've got the first component covered (temperature). But it can't really be retrofit (I just happened to luck out that my pool could accommodate the sensor), it would have to be something installed during the pool build, similar to a light niche, where the guts could be upgraded/replaced/repaired as needed. Based on available history of pool technology evolution, I expect this technology to emerge any day now, you know, sometime in the next 100-150 years... Of course, pools will be outlawed before then, due to lack of water, but a guy can dream.
I hear ya. I have a ridiculous amount of data that I collect on the pool. I haven't charted all of it but here is my temperature panel for the last 30 days. Looks like we had on freeze event last month.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
OK, not just me then. I love lookin' at that kind of stuff. My system is not that comprehensive (yet!). I can view, each day, every water temp change, along with air, but only a day at a time. I'm saving the data daily, so eventually I'll be able to go back some number of days (TBD, haven't coded that yet). Then a second chart does just daily highs and lows, for air, pool and local forecast. I'll use that to predict when to turn on/off the SWG and solar heater for the season (so some actual practical applications beyond just curiosity). It's interesting to watch how the air highs and lows affect the pool's highs and lows. But mostly I like being able to get water temp at any time of day or night, not just when the pump and my automation's pool circuit are on. More on all that soon...
If you have yourself a pi you can have all that information today. It will tell you what the SWG was running at, your salt levels, temperatures, filter pressure, pump energy use/RPM/Flow, when and how long any circuit ran... etc. It uses InfluxDB and Grafana installed on the pi and njsPC keeps track of what your EasyTouch is doing.
Heck you don't even need a pi you can install it all on a PC or Mac. You just need an RS485 port and two wires to the pad.
EDIT: Or a wifi RS485 adapter
Heck you don't even need a pi you can install it all on a PC or Mac. You just need an RS485 port and two wires to the pad.
EDIT: Or a wifi RS485 adapter
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Dang, there goes getting to the end of my to-do list!! I may hit you up sometime for a how-to...
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
[Moved from another thread, so I could more easily reference it...]
This is what I've come up with to illustrate the fix (to the over-current problem). Basically the same as @ogdento's, just a different approach. There are three variations. The splices could be soldered (my preference) or crimped or even wire-nutted, or achieved in some other way (@ogdento suggested using a terminal block to make the connections). If soldered, I'm picturing some sort of epoxy or even hot glue to seal up and insulate the connection. In the variations that use a jumper wire, I'm showing the jumper wire wrapping around the thicker two wires, and then all that would get soldered. You could use that MO for the variation that doesn't have a jumper, too. Where the wires pass through the splice, I would just shave the insulation off the wires without cutting the wire itself. That's the way I'd do it, but there are plenty of other ways to make that connection. The trick is to make a good mechanical and electrical connection that would ward off any corrosion (which is why I like to solder).
This first variation could be used when the connector hasn't yet melted. A pro-active preventative measure. Something like this is all Pentair would have to do to solve for this issue.
Variation #2 would be used for a fried connector, assuming the burn wasn't too severe. Though some of the IC60 melt downs are pretty bad.
Variation #3 is a hybrid, which could be used whether the connector was burned or not, again, assuming the burn wasn't too severe. This is what I would do if I had it to do over again. Instead, I removed the connector and soldered the large wires directly onto the board. That's a viable fix if you can pull off the soldering, but this way would be easier with less chance of messing up the board. I'm going to go back in and connect the reds and blacks as shown, just to alleviate all that current flowing through the traces of my board. Perhaps all that current through the traces is a contributing factor to those other COM components burning up?
Just want to point out that this has yet to be tried by anyone (that I know of): splicing the reds and blacks together before the connector, that is. This is our best guess of a fix. You could be first!
Edit: I can now confirm, or rather @Lake Placid can, that this fix works. He tried variation #3 and has brought his IC40 back to life!
www.troublefreepool.com
Removing the burned connector and soldering the eight wires directly to the board does work, I can confirm that, as that solved my IntelllipH failure, and has been working for severalmonths years now.
This is what I've come up with to illustrate the fix (to the over-current problem). Basically the same as @ogdento's, just a different approach. There are three variations. The splices could be soldered (my preference) or crimped or even wire-nutted, or achieved in some other way (@ogdento suggested using a terminal block to make the connections). If soldered, I'm picturing some sort of epoxy or even hot glue to seal up and insulate the connection. In the variations that use a jumper wire, I'm showing the jumper wire wrapping around the thicker two wires, and then all that would get soldered. You could use that MO for the variation that doesn't have a jumper, too. Where the wires pass through the splice, I would just shave the insulation off the wires without cutting the wire itself. That's the way I'd do it, but there are plenty of other ways to make that connection. The trick is to make a good mechanical and electrical connection that would ward off any corrosion (which is why I like to solder).
This first variation could be used when the connector hasn't yet melted. A pro-active preventative measure. Something like this is all Pentair would have to do to solve for this issue.
Variation #2 would be used for a fried connector, assuming the burn wasn't too severe. Though some of the IC60 melt downs are pretty bad.
Variation #3 is a hybrid, which could be used whether the connector was burned or not, again, assuming the burn wasn't too severe. This is what I would do if I had it to do over again. Instead, I removed the connector and soldered the large wires directly onto the board. That's a viable fix if you can pull off the soldering, but this way would be easier with less chance of messing up the board. I'm going to go back in and connect the reds and blacks as shown, just to alleviate all that current flowing through the traces of my board. Perhaps all that current through the traces is a contributing factor to those other COM components burning up?
Edit: I can now confirm, or rather @Lake Placid can, that this fix works. He tried variation #3 and has brought his IC40 back to life!
Another IPH burned connection issue
Roughly two years ago I bought a used but in good condition IPH to manage ph with my IC40. Everything worked well until this year when the IC40 started randomly power cycling, running through the startup procedure then shutting off and starting the same loop. In troubleshooting I noted when...
www.troublefreepool.com
Removing the burned connector and soldering the eight wires directly to the board does work, I can confirm that, as that solved my IntelllipH failure, and has been working for several
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- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,636
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Well... my SWG stopped working late last year. I thought it was the surge board, which I replaced, and it worked again for a while, then stopped again. I finally diagnosed the problem (I hope)! It was the "winter switch," part of my custom circuit described above. It was a 4PDT switch, a big honker. I guess ya gotta spend more than $8 on Amazon for something like that.
So I finally got around today to replacing the switch. I spent a little bit more, and ordered it from DigiKey, as per a recommendation from @ogdento. He warned me, way back when, that it probably wasn't the board, and he was probably right. Well, now I have spare! The new switch sure looked and felt of higher quality. I took a little extra time to do a better job of connecting it, too. I used spade connectors this time, and insulated each one with shrink wrap. I crimped the female connectors to the wires, then soldered them, as well. Then I lubed up the spades on the new switch with dielectric grease before sliding on the connectors.
I had soldered the wires directly to the previous switch, because soldering is better than just a friction connection. But perhaps applying all that heat to a low-quality switch accelerated its failure. So this time, I didn't have to apply heat to the switch at all, just the wires. And should the switch go out again, the next replacement will just take a few minutes, instead of the several hours that I spent this time. These wires are just running motors and relays, there are no signals running through them, so the spade connectors should be fine for that application.
I fired everything up and both the Winter Mode and Summer Mode (which includes my SWG) are working correctly. Tomorrow I'll program the SWG, and restore some CYA and I'll be off and running with swim season 2025.
Hopefully this switch will last a bit longer. I stand by my custom circuit, as its convenience is nice. It took quite a bit of time to build, and now more time to fix, so the convenience came at a heavy price. Oh well.
Here's the previous switch. In retrospect, this is not how I do, and not the quality of work that I would normally perform. I did some shoddy soldering and used cheap parts and got stung by both. Lesson learned. In my defense, this was 13 large wires crammed into a small space. And I had to install this switch standing in front of my EasyTouch, with the wires and switch hanging off of it. I didn't have the luxury of working at a bench. Yep, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Here's the replacement. A higher quality part, insulated spade connectors, all labelled and color coded. This is how I do! I still had to work standing at my ET, but the spade connectors made that much easier this time.
So I finally got around today to replacing the switch. I spent a little bit more, and ordered it from DigiKey, as per a recommendation from @ogdento. He warned me, way back when, that it probably wasn't the board, and he was probably right. Well, now I have spare! The new switch sure looked and felt of higher quality. I took a little extra time to do a better job of connecting it, too. I used spade connectors this time, and insulated each one with shrink wrap. I crimped the female connectors to the wires, then soldered them, as well. Then I lubed up the spades on the new switch with dielectric grease before sliding on the connectors.
I had soldered the wires directly to the previous switch, because soldering is better than just a friction connection. But perhaps applying all that heat to a low-quality switch accelerated its failure. So this time, I didn't have to apply heat to the switch at all, just the wires. And should the switch go out again, the next replacement will just take a few minutes, instead of the several hours that I spent this time. These wires are just running motors and relays, there are no signals running through them, so the spade connectors should be fine for that application.
I fired everything up and both the Winter Mode and Summer Mode (which includes my SWG) are working correctly. Tomorrow I'll program the SWG, and restore some CYA and I'll be off and running with swim season 2025.
Hopefully this switch will last a bit longer. I stand by my custom circuit, as its convenience is nice. It took quite a bit of time to build, and now more time to fix, so the convenience came at a heavy price. Oh well.
Here's the previous switch. In retrospect, this is not how I do, and not the quality of work that I would normally perform. I did some shoddy soldering and used cheap parts and got stung by both. Lesson learned. In my defense, this was 13 large wires crammed into a small space. And I had to install this switch standing in front of my EasyTouch, with the wires and switch hanging off of it. I didn't have the luxury of working at a bench. Yep, that's my story and I'm stickin' to it.
Here's the replacement. A higher quality part, insulated spade connectors, all labelled and color coded. This is how I do! I still had to work standing at my ET, but the spade connectors made that much easier this time.
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- May 23, 2015
- 25,693
- Pool Size
- 16000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Typically if you’re going to use a component in an outdoor environment where changes in temperature and humidity run to the extremes, it has to be very robust so I would agree with your assessment that the Dollar-Store switch off Amazon probably was never going to last. The slide-on spade connectors will do fine in my opinion. Nice rework.