Gunite Renovation or Ripout

[Mattlar0806]

Hi Everyone,

Trying to get some expert advice for a large project decision. I have an existing 30yr old Gunite pool - no idea the quality of installation. It still holds water and no visible signs of cracks that I can see through the water. Pool companies are not afraid to renovate this pool from what they see however, no one is giving a warranty on that old shell…

The top coping area doesn’t appear to be too level but I believe this to be more cosmetic.

That being said, the equipment is all shot, the plumbing is flex pvc, the returns and skimmers are all done wrong etc….

I’ve got a few quotes on the complete renovation- I mean everything brand new besides the shell. Moving skimmers , new returns, new compliant drain lines, dust , tile, coping etc…. All but the shell..

The issue I’m having personally is spending all this money and not just replacing the whole dang thing. At this point, a new pool is about 30% more on the pool cost but 15% more of my total job (patio and water rock scaping etc).

The pool is approximately where I’d want it to be already - maybe move it over 10 feet if I could. But I would like to change the depth which I cannot do easily in the renovation as the company is afraid the added weight could hurt the old shell. Shallower pools would save me money and maybe pay for itself over time??

Question is really - should I be afraid to dump all this money into and around (patio) a 30yr old Gunite which I question the overall workmanship not knowing the quality that went into it? Or are these things pretty bulletproof and I should allocate that large amount to something else?

Thanks

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

A pool constructed 30 years ago was built with better materials than most today.
The fact that it’s still holding water and showing no signs of any failure shows to me that the craftsmanship was of high quality.
Moving the pool can be problematic if it’s going to need backfill on the floor due to the chances of settling.

 

[kimkats]

I would not touch the shell. It seems to be working just fine. Moving it could cause a lot more problems then help anything.

 

[ajw22]

Where in the “Northeast” are you?

Gunite shells rarely, if ever fail, in the Northeast. If it lasted for 30 years it will go for another 30 or more. They built them better then, then what you would get now.

 

[Mattlar0806]

Long Island.

Thank you very much for all the responses.

Going another 30 years would be great but we may be selling our house then or before. Should that be a concern? New buyers see a 50-60 year old pool vs a 20-30 year?

Definitely see the point things were better then than now, but I know this pool was built by someone who was just starting in the business and that is what was worrying me. I fear that he would not have been the one to build it to those higher standards back then.

I would really like to change the depth on this pool as it gets shallow really quick but I may just have to live with it. Pool company said they can use a form of styrofoam as a lightweight option but that’s is super costly and they’ve only done it a few times.

 

[ajw22]

You bought the house with the pool as is. Either a future buyer wants a house with a pool or they don’t. Saying it has a 20 year old shell versus 50 year old shell will not add $1 to the house selling price.

Either the pool holds water and is good or it does not regardless of age.

Right now I am working with my son to bring this 40 year old pool on LI back to life. The pool has been an unused green swamp for a few years. Installing all new equipment and electrical…

 

[Mattlar0806]

You bought the house with the pool as is. Either a future buyer wants a house with a pool or they don’t. Saying it has a 20 year old shell versus 50 year old shell will not add $1 to the house selling price.

Either the pool holds water and is good or it does not regardless of age.

Right now I am working with my son to bring this 40 year old pool on LI back to life. The pool has been an unused green swamp for a few years. Installing all new equipment and electrical…

View attachment 515048

Thank you. This is the reassurance I needed.

Any solutions to depth changes or just leave it? It has a diving board, never measured it but i want to say 9-10ft deep. Would prefer 6-7 and a larger shallow end to play games with the kids.

 

[ajw22]

Any solutions to depth changes or just leave it?

Work with your renovation company on what they can do.

Saying the weight can be a problem is a cop out by them. There Is a common solution of filling the floor up with sand bags then putting a floor of concrete over it. If they have never done it they may not be comfortable.

It is a structural engineering problem and pool companies don’t have structural engineers. Now a days they just stamp out cookie cutter pools from standard plans.

If you have enough money to throw at it and find the right professionals it can be done. Otherwise keep it simple within what the workmen can do today.

It has a diving board, never measured it but i want to say 9-10ft deep. Would prefer 6-7 and a larger shallow end to play games with the kids.

6-7 feet versus 9-10 feet makes no difference other then a bit less water volume to heat and use chemicals.

Either the depth is shallow enough to stand in or it is not. Once you cannot stand in the water how deep it is hardly matters.

In your next house you can build your perfect pool.

 

[Mattlar0806]

Work with your renovation company on what they can do.

Saying the weight can be a problem is a cop out by them. There Is a common solution of filling the floor up with sand bags then putting a floor of concrete over it. If they have never done it they may not be comfortable.

It is a structural engineering problem and pool companies don’t have structural engineers. Now a days they just stamp out cookie cutter pools from standard plans.

If you have enough money to throw at it and find the right professionals it can be done. Otherwise keep it simple within what the workmen can do today.



6-7 feet versus 9-10 feet makes no difference other then a bit less water volume to heat and use chemicals.

Either the depth is shallow enough to stand in or it is not. Once you cannot stand in the water how deep it is hardly matters.

In your next house you can build your perfect

pool.

Thank you for all of this.

I guess the 6-7ft was more for the shallow end to pitch much later increasing the shallow end. Right now it starts to pitch well before the halfway point (20x40). Also not being the most amazing under water swimmer I just like the idea of bottom at 6-7 vs 9-10. Maybe they can change the pitch easier. I’ll ask them about the sandbags. It’s a very reputable company I am using. You’re on long island - there are not many of them.

 

[ajw22]

Are you going to remove the diving board?

There are codes on the profile required for a diving pool. There are also codes on the maximum slope of a pool floor transition.

We can have a long discussion on why the 2008 recession and then COVID have hit builders hard and reduced their capabilities. Many companies have a reputation based on what they used to be able to do but the workforce they have today is not the same.

 

[Mattlar0806]

Are you going to remove the diving board?

There are codes on the profile required for a diving pool. There are also codes on the maximum slope of a pool floor transition.

We can have a long discussion on why the 2008 recession and then COVID have hit builders hard and reduced their capabilities. Many companies have a reputation based on what they used to be able to do but the workforce they have today is not the same.

removing diving board and replacing with a rock scape / waterfall and 15.5 dolphin slide. So depth is not an issue.

Can’t argue against drop in quality.

I’d be curious to know slope requirements.

Who have you found to still be good with Gunite?

 

[ajw22]

I’d be curious to know slope requirements.

This is not binding for residential pools but is a good guide.

Title: Section 6-1.29 - Swimming pool design standards | New York Codes, Rules and Regulations

regs.health.ny.gov

5.3 Bottom slope. The bottom of the pool shall slope toward the main
drain. The slope in water depths less than five feet shall not exceed 1
foot vertical to 12 feet horizontal.

2018 INTERNATIONAL SWIMMING POOL AND SPA CODE (ISPSC) | ICC DIGITAL CODES

ICC Digital Codes is the largest provider of model codes, custom codes and standards used worldwide to construct safe, sustainable, affordable and resilient structures.

codes.iccsafe.org

See Section 807.

See SR Smith document attached.

Who have you found to still be good with Gunite? There’s gibbons, haven, tortorella, Long Island .

I have not needed to do Gunite work to know.

 

[TimZ]

It has a diving board, never measured it but i want to say 9-10ft deep. Would prefer 6-7 and a larger shallow end to play games with the kids.

It might be a reasonable first step to measure this depth. If you're off on your estimate and it's only, say, 8-8.5, then that will mean less of a difference across the depth profile to go to 6-7.

Kids will jump / dive / do crazy stuff. In my opinion it's safer to have some good depth for them to do it in.

 

[Household6]

I have a 20x40 “vintage” (1975’ish) concrete pool. Don’t mess with it if there aren’t any issues. Todays standards will never equate what you have now.

I have had cracks in mine, but it doesn’t leak. We patch them about every 3-4 years.

As for depth, think about 5 years from now. The kids are going to prefer a diving board versus a slide! (And is 6’ going to be deep enough for a slide once they get taller?)

My pool goes from 3’ to 10’ish feet. Starts the obvious slope at half-way across pool prob around 4.5’.

I’ve had this hare brained idea of tieing together plastic milk crates with zip ties and weighing them down with sandbags to create a more shallow area for our dogs. Might not be pretty, but it’s a short-term solution and kids aren’t going to care!

Another recent idea is to add about 10’ to shallow end of pool and create a zero/beach entry.

You may not be a strong swimmer now, but you can change that!

You want a fun pool, not a pool you can find at any hotel that’s scared of liability! (Within reason of course.)

Just my two cents.

 

[Bill1974]

Like others have recommended, leave the shell alone. People who want a pool just want one that is not a basket case and the ones that don't want one but houses w/o a pool. If the pool hasn't had any issues in 30 years, the chances it will is pretty slim. With redoing the patio around the pool, plumbing, skimmers, etc, make sure that any soil that is disturbed well compacted before or backfilled with material that compacts easily and well. Also make sure to maintain whatever drainage you have had around the pool. Proper drainage and backfill is what has allowed your pool to last this long without issues.

With reno of the pool and patio around it your also likely going to be redoing most of the backyard too, if you have not figured that in. Also likely need some reno to an irrigation system if you have one too.

For the depth, get some noodles and floats. Even with jumping in from the edge of the pool the depth is an advantage over it being shallower. Probably more people injured jumping/diving into a pool that is shallower than expected than being deeper than expected.

If you're thinking shallower will save you money, the ROI to make is shallower probably won't happen in your ownership of the pool. If you have the funds and you want make changes for yourself, only you can put a value on that.

 

[Mattlar0806]

Thank you all!!!

You have all convinced me that it’s best to renovate and best to keep the original deeper profile of this pool. I agree it will be safer when the kids are older. The slide not being fun is a concern tho - this thing is not cheap but we don’t want the danger that a diving board brings.

Backyard reno is definitely going to be a must. Luckily we do not have sprinklers yet. It’s another part of this project. It’s a big one .

I am definitely worried the existing mixture is the perfect combo for this pool and when we excavate around for the plumbing and for the removal of old patio and all old concrete slabs that we will disturb this perfect combo.

We are putting down marble pavers on a concrete slab so hopefully no real drainage / settling problems but it’s definitely a concern.

 

[Bill1974]

You do have to plan for drainage of the concrete slab. Usually these slabs are not finished like exposed concrete since they will be covered with sand and have pavers on them. But it should be finished and sloped to allow water to shed away from the pool and any other area where you don't want water. I needed to leave a strip between a retaining wall and the slab for a french drain so water would not pool up against the retaining wall. If you look at the most paver mfg recommended method for installing over a concrete slab, they recommend putting holes in the slab and filling with gravel to allow water to drain. I have a couple of spots on my pool patio where I need to pull up a paver and put a hole in the slab. Seems as if the border pavers were mortared in well enough to hold water. In long steady rains it's enough to cause water to get behind the liner.

 

[Mattlar0806]

You do have to plan for drainage of the concrete slab. Usually these slabs are not finished like exposed concrete since they will be covered with sand and have pavers on them. But it should be finished and sloped to allow water to shed away from the pool and any other area where you don't want water. I needed to leave a strip between a retaining wall and the slab for a french drain so water would not pool up against the retaining wall. If you look at the most paver mfg recommended method for installing over a concrete slab, they recommend putting holes in the slab and filling with gravel to allow water to drain. I have a couple of spots on my pool patio where I need to pull up a paver and put a hole in the slab. Seems as if the border pavers were mortared in well enough to hold water. In long steady rains it's enough to cause water to get behind the liner.

Yea the pool guy insisted the mason cannot do on rca , the Mason really wanted rca. In the end the pool guy convinced the Mason. We may drill holes but the pool guy just said proper pitching and there will be no issues.

Our pool is next to house so it can’t slope away from the house and the pool at the same time. So have to solve for that probably a drain will be needed.

 

[Bill1974]

The slab and pavers will need some pitch, make a swale between and also pitch along the swale. A drain may also be needed, but it also needs to be pitch toward the drain. The challenge with the drain is that it needs to drain water from the top of the paver and th top of the slab. In theory the slab and pavers can be pitched but it can be tough to get enough fall depending on the distances you have also not end up with a wavy patio. Try to avoid pitching where chairs or lounges might be tilted to the side, surprising how easy it is to feel a chair or lounge is tilted sideways. My mason also told me that deck drains were pricey or that was his way to get me to not use them.

 

[Mattlar0806]

Another difference with new build is the installation of 5inch masonry support ledge.

Said on the renovation this wouldn’t be done but to instead use sonotubes if necessary.

Can anyone explain the pros / cons of this?
Are sonotubes expensive to add to the patio install? It’s about 1800 sqft