Greetings

[TexEdmond]

We bought a house with a pool last October. The pool itself is 3 years old now, in-ground, concrete, and a newer Pentair / A&A system with in-floor cleaners and two skimmers. One is suction only, the other has the fancy venturi pressure side. The pool has the leaf-minder pre-filter basket before the pump and the cyclone sediment separator before the main cartridge filter. It has a QuickPure Ozonator lamp, a cannister chlorinator (we've been keeping it full of tabs, but not sure where to leave the dial setting), and a big-ol' honkin natural gas heater. We survived the ice storm and power outage 11 days after closing on our house, and although we lost many branches from our trees, there were still plenty of leaves left to turn brown and fall from our pecan, oak, and elm trees for us to skim out of the pool. We survived the great freeze of January 2021 with several nights getting down into the -10 range, but fortunately never lost power. So, we didn't have to close the pool for the winter or mess with getting the chemistry correct opening it back up this spring. That was pretty awesome, but the 3-4" thick ice pack on the top of the pool was very stressful.

We've done our best to educate ourselves on chemistry and keeping things in balance, but I'm finally realizing that it was so much easier to do when the water was cold. Now we're looking at daytime air temps of 90-95 and the pool water temp peaked at 87 today. We're on well water (that's VERY hard out of the tap), and we've struggled with keeping CYA in check. I'm considering selling the remaining tabs I have on the black market (or just returning them and everything else that has dichlor or trichlor) because it's been very high since the day we bought the pool. I've taken the "tabby floater donut" out of the pool and am trying to keep the chlorinator cannister as low as possible.

I drained about half the pool (I believe our best guess is 36k gallons) last week and refilled, that took our CYA down from 153 to 121. Good news is I can drain the pool in the afternoon, leave two hoses in the pool overnight and be just right about full by 10am the next day. Well water has its drawbacks but it's pretty cheap to run the pump. I'm also just now understanding how CYA causes TA to read high, but we're finding ourselves with the increasing pool temps, our normal process isn't able to keep the water clear enough. I also had an incorrect idea that pH was the thing to watch while adding acid to keep alkalinity down. I now know that I can add acid to reduce alkalinity and even if it throws the pH too low temporarily, I'm running the pump, the floor cleaners cycle thru the spa and over the spillway, plus there's a pesky suction side air leak I've not yet found, so I'm bubbling all over the place with my floor cleaners. No worries on pH staying low too long with all the air bubbles I'm putting into the pool.

My biggest issue right now is we've got cloudy water, and I suspect it's because the [ high temp / pH / Alkalinity / hardness ] machine only has two levers I can pull on, and that looks like pouring acid in the pool to get things back clear. LSI calculated at +0.25 yesterday and +0.4 today. I shocked a few days ago and fortunately it's looking like I'm rock solid 0.2 differential between FAC and TC, and hopefully that's because the ozonator has a new lamp keeping our chloramines down. From what I've seen here, that also would suggest I don't have a current algae problem (less than 0.5), but the conditions are prime for one, so it's critical I do something about it NOW. This evening I turned everything off (including pump breaker, safety first) and dived down with a T20S screwdriver and took the cover off the floor drain and pulled a few handfuls of sand / leaves / acorns / plaster bits / previous owner's goggle lenses out of there. I've put 2+ gallons of muriatic into the pool over the last few days and TA is creeping back down from 115 yesterday to 103 today and I put another 60oz of muriatic in after that 103 test today. Those numbers are adjusted by the Leslie's machine to compensate for the higher CYA we have right now. I don't have a good test kit yet, I have seen a few threads mentioning that's critical, and I absolutely agree. For what it's worth, our strips seemed to correlate with the Leslie's machine (yes, I've seen at least one of those threads too), and I understand that there's a difference between consistency and accuracy. I try to use the best resources I can find until better ones come to my awareness. I've got another 3 pounds of shock in there now, pump running to spread it around. I notice after I shock, a light dusting of white particles floats to the top, but I can't scoop it out with my skimmer. We've got family coming next month and my wife's gonna be REALLY upset if the pool is cloudy when they get here, whether or not it's algae or just a little bit of calcium coming out of solution. I don't want to drain the pool again if I can get away with it, but if that's the correct action, I'll do it.

So yeah. That's nothing about me and a whole lot about my pool. My wife and I love the pool. Our dog, not so much. Her loss. I'm a little bit of a chemistry geek, but certainly not a professional. Keep the snark to a minimum and let's all help each other out. Because you know what they say:

"If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the precipitate."

Cheers and happy... pooling. Splashing? Ehh, whatever.

 

[HermanTX]

Welcome to TFP.
You are very good at self-analyzing your current pool issues. So as you indicated, the best next step is to get your own test kit - see Test Kits Compared
Suggest you continue to reduce your CYA so you can get it into reasonable range then follow the FC/CYA Levels to ensure you are properly sanitized. That will help clear your water also.
You have not mentioned your CH level but that may be an issue as well and by draining you may also help reduce that in addition to CYA.
Adding MA to adjust pH and TA is fine but maybe a waste of chemicals if you are going to drain again.
Once you get your test kit - I would make that a priority. Test your well water so you know what is being added every time you have to top up due to evaporation. Then test daily your FC levels of your pool to get that dialed in.
Have you read ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry and Recommended Levels
Also suggest you get PoolMath so you can track your chemical additions, obtain guidance on how much to add of each based on your specific pool volume, plaster pool, etc.
Also, if you are not sure of your pool volume, is there any way to monitor how much water you add when you drain it 50% or whatever level you do? Getting a more precise volume helps determine the amount of chemical you need to make certain adjustments such as dropping your pH from 8 to 7.6 the Pool Math app can provide you specifics on how much MA to add.

Edit - use liquid chlorine, stop using granular shock from the pool store. Also, keep your pucks as they can be helpful if you go away for a vacation period. So long as you know what the effect will be, you can monitor them properly.
Good Luck.

 

[TexEdmond]

Ha! I had read so much about unreliability of strips and the Leslie's machine, I didn't bother posting any of the other numbers.

Calcium hardness after ~50% drain / refill went from 410 to 372. The test strip resolution is worthless; somewhere between 250 and 500? (I see the need for better precision here). I don't have good numbers for my well water.
Phosphates readings from the pool store are all over the chart, and I'm not super concerned with them as long as we're not in an algae bloom. Pre-drain level was 1278 ppb. Post drain was 873, and the next day it was 1061. That doesn't look like data to me, and if the pool keeps FC up and CC down, my unqualified opinion is the cloudy water is a chemistry issue that needs resolved immediately before it becomes a biological issue.
Copper levels are 0.2-0.3ppm the last 2 tests. That's likely because we tried those copper anode "solar shock" floaters for a couple of weeks. They're not in the pool anymore, mostly because they're a complete messy pain in the butt to clean, and I don't want to use dissolved metals to cover up for bad chemistry.

Thank you for the reality check... I have water that's very high in calcium hardness and CYA, at 87 degrees, with a suction side air leak and floor cleaners that run water over the spillway several times per hour. The pH and alkalinity are always creeping higher. Is it any wonder the water's going cloudy? Muriatic acid reduces alkalinity, but I ought to start looking at buying it in 55 gallon drums if I don't take care of the underlying chemistry. I see what you mean about trying to get CYA under control, as it buffers pH and zaps the active chlorine's ability to sanitize. I downloaded the app last night, but I'd assume it'll just give me "garbage in / garbage out" without real data from a test kit, real volume numbers (the previous owners left ZERO documentation, so I'll have to reach out to the builder), and better baseline water chemistry. The wife and I had a chat about things last night, she says she's okay with adding chemicals that will clarify the water. My reply: "Of course we can do that. But I'm the one that has to clean the filters..." I don't like the idea of putting crazy floc or phosphorus binders and then trying to vacuum them out... Especially if that doesn't address the underlying issue that's causing the cloudiness. In the short term, looks like I'm draining again, maybe multiple times?

I'm not sure if I understand your question about "is there any way to monitor how much water you add when you drain it 50%..." When I drain the pool, I open up the sediment drain on the MultiCyclone 50, the air release at the pressure dial on my cartridge, and the hose bib they put (as a vaccum lock release?) between the two. Basically I'm opening up anything I can find on the pressure side and letting the pump run and use pipe / tubing to make sure the water flows well away from the foundation or the retaining wall. Our lot is pretty sloped and there's a well-established drainage I used a guesstimate on depths to get the 50% drained level, but I'm not sure if there's a product that'll actually measure how many gallons I'm putting back in?

I'll start the search for liquid chlorine. I don't know if this is a distinction without a difference: we're not using pool store shock anymore, instead I've got HTH supershock 56.44% Cal Hypo. I see now that might not be the best thing with calcium hardness in the high 300s. I put 3 pounds in the pool last night and it slammed the test strips out to the max on both TC and FC. I dipped a strip this morning and there's still a good amount, and the sun's been up for a few hours already.

I know there'll be plenty of time to research later, but I'm curious about some of the long-term issues we're dealing with. Is it worth me considering investing in taking the plunge (I'm sorry I had to) on a salt water system? I am sure there's still plenty of maintenance for those too, but I do generally believe in "buy once / cry once." It's not so much that I'm lazy (well, okay, I'm lazy) as much as I know myself well enough to know I often get distracted on something else and have definitely let the pool go too long with not enough chlorine in it. The scary realization I'm seeing now is, I'm pretty confident that the pool has had over 100ppm CYA in it since we bought the house. That leads me to think that EVERY time I've put shock in the pool, it's not been enough to fully sanitize the water, and basically the only thing removing chloramines has been the ozonator.

 

[HermanTX]

Phosphates readings from the pool store are all over the chart, and I'm not super concerned with them as long as we're not in an algae bloom. Pre-drain level was 1278 ppb. Post drain was 873, and the next day it was 1061.

Not important. Focus on FC level

I downloaded the app last night, but I'd assume it'll just give me "garbage in / garbage out" without real data from a test kit, real volume numbers (the previous owners left ZERO documentation, so I'll have to reach out to the builder),

Do some basic measuring of width, length, depth. Break it up into smaller rectangles or squares and add all the areas together. Use average depth. That will get you close.

I'm not sure if I understand your question about "is there any way to monitor how much water you add when you drain it 50%..." When I drain the pool,

I was thinking that if you drained down 3 ft then if you have a flow meter on your well pump you would know how much volume is in that 3 ft of total pool area. Just a helpful data point to have because most people only drain partially so that gives you some idea of how much water you are replacing to the total volume (calculated as point above)

instead I've got HTH supershock 56.44% Cal Hypo. I see now that might not be the best thing with calcium hardness in the high 300s. I put 3 pounds in the pool last night and it slammed the test strips out to the max on both TC and FC. I dipped a strip this morning and there's still a good amount, and the sun's been up for a few hours already.

This is adding calcium, which you have plenty of in your well water. So try to find LC or Liquid Shock - it will state on it x% of Sodium Hypochlorite such as 6% or 10% or 12.5%.

considering investing in taking the plunge (I'm sorry I had to) on a salt water system? I am sure there's still plenty of maintenance for those too, but I do generally believe in "buy once / cry once.

That is a great solution to purchase a SWCG. There are many models to choose from. Maintenance is probably less then dumping LC but as you say - high initial cost outlay but well worth the investment over the long term.

That leads me to think that EVERY time I've put shock in the pool, it's not been enough to fully sanitize the water, and basically the only thing removing chloramines has been the ozonator.

Need to follow the FC/CYA Levels. That is one of the golden rules of TFP. Another is to have your own test kit.

 

[TexEdmond]

You rock. Thanks so much. I just ordered a TF100 kit and a Taylor SpeedStir. I'll reach out to the builder today, and hopefully get some better info, as well as see what options they recommend for SWCG that'll best work with our components. I've not seen a well meter thus far, just the pressure tank. If I find one, that'd be a really useful tool to utilize. Thanks for bringing it to my attention.

Do some basic measuring of width, length, depth. Break it up into smaller rectangles or squares and add all the areas together. Use average depth. That will get you close.

That's basically what I did for estimating the 50% drain level. Good minds think alike.

 

[TexEdmond]

@HermanTX your idea of a metered well pump was a brilliant nudge that knocked loose an idea that I tried last night.

I remembered my IntelliFlow pump communicates back with the control unit with a number of details: RPM, GPM, and wattage, so here's what I did last night:

The pool pump returned a value of 54GPM, but that dropped gradually to 52GPM as the pool level decreased (expected). I drained ~36" of pool water over 4h 22m last night, so my best guess is I drained just shy of 14,000 gallons at 53GPM. This was approximately double the amount I drained last week; I don't think I have anywhere near a 36k pool like we'd guesstimated. I am waiting to hear back from the PB who's going to pull our file and send me documents hopefully today with total numbers, etc. Last time draining I went down to the tops of the benches, ~18". This time I went down almost to the floor at the shallowest part of the shallow end, and also drained the spa. These should be good references should I ever end up in this situation again, fingers crossed I don't. Last week's dilution dropped CYA 153ppm to 121 (32ppm, questionable test accuracy), so if I'm lucky this might give me as much as 64ppm reduction, this would land me at 57ppm CYA. I've got a feeling as much sun as the pool gets I'll naturally want to have those numbers on the high side of normal, and it'll be very easy to titrate up using my chlorinator tube's dial. Bring on the test kit! I'm already mad, now I can be a mad scientist!

 

[TexEdmond]

I don't have my accurate test kit yet, but I just gotta brush off my shoulders real quick. Just put my sample thru the Leslie's machine and did a basic confirmation with a dippystrip. I've still got a thousand gallons of fill to do, but water's an inch over the skimmer inlets and CYA came back at 59ppm. BAM. Having fun with spreadsheets!

 

[HermanTX]

Great. So when you get your test kit you can confirm all but appears to be right on target. I would not worry about TA until you can test yourself. However, you to need to get your FC up to 7 or 8ppm. That may help clear your cloudiness as well. You will have some dilution with your remaining fill on both CYA and FC but you will add CH. When is your test kit due to arrive?
Do you have LC on hand to add to the pool?

 

[TexEdmond]

I'm right on top of that, headed out now after dinner. I put a gallon and a half MA in there and aerated for an hour or more just waiting for the sun to go down while the last few hundred gallons were filling. I was stuck at home all day with the refill, so I haven't scrounged up any LC. Now that I've dropped another 110ppm on calcium, I've got some room to use up some of the Cal Hypo 54% I still have left. I heard a rumor the hard freeze we got in January has raised the water table, which might have dropped the hardness a bit.

Not sure when the test kit arrives, it just says "shipped" on the order, and only ordered it yesterday. East coast to OKC shouldn't be too terribly bad, no tracking number yet though.

 

[TexEdmond]

I got an email with the tracking number and estimated delivery of 6/23 and was devastated. But I also notice it was already in Memphis at 1am today... That's less than 500 miles away, hopefully they can make faster than 100 miles per day...

I put my last gallon of MA in the pool this morning and have the spillway and fountain running to keep pH from dropping too low. I think I'll use some time today to try to source liquid chlorine. Seems like I had plenty of chlorine this morning. I put a new set of filters in a few weeks ago and the old ones have been soaking in Dawn dish soap overnight. I'll rinse and swap. I'm a little gun-shy about disposing of TSP and even diluted MA, so I think that's going to be my best cleaning method for awhile. We've got a creek at the back of our property that feeds a community pond, so I want to not just be indiscriminately dumping chemicals downstream. And I'm terrified to put that stuff in my septic tank...

 

[mguzzy]

Howdy Tex! Welcome to the forum!

Looks like you have your hands full! and are doing a fine job of figuring it out.

Keep the snark to a minimum

Wait.. I'm sorry, but I just can't do that.. my snarkasms are my best asset

Herman has your back. Once you get your test kit you will have SO much fun. Is the pool still cloudy? It could very well just be a filtration thing. No doubt you are on course to do and OCLT to see if you need to do a SLAM...and if so clean those filters often.

Also once you get a test kit you can dial in your pools volume by seeing how the levels change with incremental additions of chems.. it will surely tickle the chem geek in you.

You've got a cool looking pool .. The dog don't know what she is missing!

 

[TexEdmond]

Also once you get a test kit you can dial in your pools volume by seeing how the levels change with incremental additions of chems.. it will surely tickle the chem geek in you

So much of my life is just trying to leverage my OCD against my ADHD... Or is it the other way around? My shipping prayers were answered, UPS updated the delivery estimate to today! Arriving separately scheduled from Amazon today: Digital pH meter, Taylor SpeedStir, elbow length chemical gloves, and skimmer socks.

Is the pool still cloudy?

Just a bit. I rinsed off the filter canisters yesterday and a lot of milky cloudiness came off them. Hopefully that's some of the calcium I suspect was causing problems lately from high hardness / alkalinity. I can see the drain in the deep end, but there's some cloudiness that remains. We noticed last night when the lights were on that some of the cloudiness in the pool are just bubbles. Need to get this air leak under control as well, if at least to provide a little better stability in the pH. I want to be able to aerate the pool on purpose and turn it off when it's not necessary.

You've got a cool looking pool .. The dog don't know what she is missing!

She's always been a total princess about getting her feet wet, dunno why... The great conundrum is, she's a Swiss Mountain Dog that will do anything to avoid walking on wet grass to pee, but I can't get her to come in when she's romping around in the snow. We've got her a swimming floatation vest and have dragged her in a few times. Also I try to bribe her by putting a bunch of treats on a lounge chair and giving her snackums whenever she even thinks about putting a paw into the water.