Florida 20x40 - Owner build

[Julianl50]

This is my second go at designing a pool for my backyard. Last year I was pretty happy with a freeform design but I just could not get happy with the layout (in and out of the pool).

So here I am with a new design that I'm pretty happy with. Although I'm a bit confronted by the doubling of the water, chems and heating.

Owner Build
20x40 with 7x16 Shelf Approx 38k gal. South side of house with the long dimension going north/ south.
4'-8' Depth
Like the look of pebble but want a smoother feel. Quartz?
Pentair intelliflo 3hp 011056 (pre owned from old fiberglass pool)
Pentair inteleliflo 3hp 011075
Hayward W3AQ15 (owned). I bought it for this new pool but have been using it on the FG pool. At the time I didn't imagine that I'd have + 20k pool.
Will be using solar thermal. TBD
Ordered pentair ccp420 filter but will use Aquastar Pipeline 37K. Buying both to get the better warranty from pentair on the lights and pump. Will resell CCP.
2 port Channel Drain with hydrostatic. My current design has a wall suction and main drain. Will eliminate wall suction.
2 Skimmers. The wind is pretty shifty. Only direction it doesn't come from is the north because the pool is on the south side of the house.
3 Std Bubblers
3 Deck Jets
4 Returns
Auto fill and drain.
Vacuum port
I have a dolphin robot
4 Microbrites. Location TBD. Current design has them pointing towards FUTURE home addition.
Coping - Precast concrete. Not to popular in this area. so seems $$$. Pour in place seems risky for cracking and defects.
1600sf paver deck
nodes-poolController Automation. Was in use at FG pool

The items I'm still evaluating are:

Stairs. Probably only need steps on one side.

Does it make sense to have the water feature pump?

Main drain. I would prefer to not have one. Can two skimmers supply enough for the two pumps? I think the only other reason to keep the main drain is that my water table can be as high as 36" from the waterline. So the hydrostatic valve can be good insurance.

Shelf depth is 12" and bench is 18". I am thinking it might be better to have the shelf at 18" then it goes straight out without the small drop to the bench.

Home run supply and return. Seems like good insurance against any in ground failures. 1.5" returns, 2" skimmer, 2.5" main drains.

Light locations. The bench side would be a good candidate for lights but if on the bench it would cast a shadow just beyond it. Other side (as in the drawing) it will point in to the Future addition.

Since I will have a good part of the year with groundwater around the pool I'm considering bascrete waterproofing the shell. Is this nice to have or must have? Seems like a $2k - 4k cost.

Open to any feedback or ideas. Thanks

​

 

[kimkats]

Hi and thanks for letting us help build your pool! Fun times ahead!

4'-8' Depth

Love, love, love your depth profile! What a fun pool this will be!

2 port Channel Drain with hydrostatic.

Glad to see you are doing the channel drain. It just looks better and can blend in with the plaster if you get that kind.

Stairs. Probably only need steps on one side.

I am on the fence about that. Once I get the answer to be questions below I can better frame my answer.

Where is the house? What will the future structure be?

Main drain. I would prefer to not have one.

You do not have to have one. Just make sure the skimmers are plumber independent of each other so if one fails the other one can take over.

Yes main drain-help mix the water better from the deep end to the shallow end.

No main drain-one less thing to go wrong

Shelf depth is 12" and bench is 18".

If you mark the shelf and bench with tiles the different sizes should be fine and there will be a spot for everyone's wants for depth of water.

The skimmer on the bench bothers me. Saying that I KNOW I am kind of a "mama bear" so take that in consideration. I worry someone will sit in front of the skimmer and their hair or strings from their bathing suit MIGHT get sucked in. Their body can also block the flow of water into the skimmer that MIGHT cause problems with the pump. Just something to think about.

Booster suction-what is this?

I would put a return on the big shelf to help keep it clean of stuff. Put it where it can push the stuff off and into the main body of the pool.

As far as the smoothest plaster I am not sure. I wonder if just plain plaster would be smoother than some of the pebbles ones?

 

[YippeeSkippy]

I like it a lot! Signing on to watch this one....

 

[Julianl50]

Hi and thanks for letting us help build your pool! Fun times ahead!


Love, love, love your depth profile! What a fun pool this will be!

Glad to see you are doing the channel drain. It just looks better and can blend in with the plaster if you get that kind.

I am on the fence about that. Once I get the answer to be questions below I can better frame my answer.

Where is the house? What will the future structure be?

You do not have to have one. Just make sure the skimmers are plumber independent of each other so if one fails the other one can take over.

Yes main drain-help mix the water better from the deep end to the shallow end.

No main drain-one less thing to go wrong

If you mark the shelf and bench with tiles the different sizes should be fine and there will be a spot for everyone's wants for depth of water.

The skimmer on the bench bothers me. Saying that I KNOW I am kind of a "mama bear" so take that in consideration. I worry someone will sit in front of the skimmer and their hair or strings from their bathing suit MIGHT get sucked in. Their body can also block the flow of water into the skimmer that MIGHT cause problems with the pump. Just something to think about.

Booster suction-what is this?

I would put a return on the big shelf to help keep it clean of stuff. Put it where it can push the stuff off and into the main body of the pool.

As far as the smoothest plaster I am not sure. I wonder if just plain plaster would be smoother than some of the pebbles ones?

House is on the shallow end. The addition (not to scale) will be the new location of kitchen, LR, Dining. I'm shooting for the shelf to be in line with the LR.
Existing will be bedroom and office.

Yes the skimmer on the bench side seems awkward. The booster suction is for the second pump to run the bubblers and deck jets. Since changing to the channel drain ill be omitted.

Thanks

 

[kimkats]

OH I Like your plans for the future! The shelf right there will be purrfect.

I like how the two sets of steps balance the shallow end of the pool but they do take up a bit of play area. If you take out one set it should be the one on the side away from the future addition.

For skimmer on the bench put it in the corner where that set of steps was. Now don't put it in the middle of the "swim lane" though.

Kim

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Consider more than one umbrella sleeve to help chase the sun.
The pool is all straight lines with the steps and seats all radius.
Return line on the tanning ledge needs to point length wise, and may require a light.
Steps are typically located with a purpose, so the second set is only necessary if exiting the pool in that corner leads to an area with high traffic.

As an Owner Builder their are many small details that need to be addressed with specific trades, one example are the bubblers on the tanning shelf, their elevation when installed (prior to Shotcrete) is critical to the end plaster elevation, so communication is important with the plumber on how the elevation was selected.

 

[Julianl50]

Consider more than one umbrella sleeve to help chase the sun.
The pool is all straight lines with the steps and seats all radius.
Return line on the tanning ledge needs to point length wise, and may require a light.
Steps are typically located with a purpose, so the second set is only necessary if exiting the pool in that corner leads to an area with high traffic.

As an Owner Builder their are many small details that need to be addressed with specific trades, one example are the bubblers on the tanning shelf, their elevation when installed (prior to Shotcrete) is critical to the end plaster elevation, so communication is important with the plumber on how the elevation was selected

Good Points.

Didn't really consider (see) the rounding of the benches. I'm going to think about integrating the steps in to the shelf.

The height of the drains and bubblers has been something that I have been thinking about. Just saw another post about a having in floor cleaning jets too high. 36 of them!

When calculating the water height would you specify it with plaster or just shell. 3" above water + 12" water + 1/2" plaster . Or is 15" close enough?

I've seen you mention if the plumber gets the skimmer height right you have good adjustability of water height. Seems simple but have read many sad stories on here. So the center of the opening should 3" below the bond beam?

Thank You.

 

[AQUA~HOLICS]

Always calculate to finished plaster then add your water depth, so when explaining to your contractors they all understand what you expect for final elevation. I start with water depth and work backwards, water ,plaster, Shotcrete thickness just to get at excavation depth of the sun shelf.
I have always seen the skimmers set evenly to the top height of the pool forms.

 

[ajw22]

Why 2 pumps?

Your diagram shows a booster suction and a vacuum line. Booster for what?

You cannot have two pumps pulling from the same skimmer lines.

What are you trying to do?

With an 8' depth I would want a main drain in the deep area. In my opinion shallow pools don;t need a main drain but deep pools can benefit from the improved circulation or a MD in the deep end.

You can have, and should have, a hydrostatic relief valve independent of if you have a main drain.

 

[Julianl50]

Why 2 pumps?

Your diagram shows a booster suction and a vacuum line. Booster for what?

You cannot have two pumps pulling from the same skimmer lines.

What are you trying to do?

With an 8' depth I would want a main drain in the deep area. In my opinion shallow pools don;t need a main drain but deep pools can benefit from the improved circulation or a MD in the deep end.

You can have, and should have, a hydrostatic relief valve independent of if you have a main drain.

I was told that the bubblers and deck jets would be better served with its own pump.

Initially, It was shown as main drain for one pump and the other pump for the water features (Booster suction). I asked if I could use one channel drain for both pumps and they said yes. But through engineering I find that it's no good. So now back to main drain and wall drain. The main drain and skimmers would go to the main pump and the wall drain would have the water features.

My thought on the vac port is to be able to put a vacuum brush on if desired.

 

[Julianl50]

Should I care what brand skimmer or channel drain I'm using? Pentair is what I have ordered. Is the aqua star channel drain any better?

 

[Julianl50]

I'm looking at putting up 14 - 16 Solar thermal panels. @ 5 gpm per i'll need 80 gpm.

I have two pumps and was wondering if splitting the array between pumps would be helpful. The array will be ground mount with the equipment pad beside it. The second pump runs 3 bubblers and deck jets(separately valved).

My assumed benefits for two arrays @40 gpm ea:

Quieter​

More efficient power usage​

​

It will add cost and complexity.

I have two intelliflos 3hp 011056 and 011075.

Am I missing anything?

I used the pump spreadsheet and I think I entered enough data to compare.

edit: added tldr for table:

If I'm entering good data and my assumptions are correct it seems like it's $84 vs 189 per month for 7hours runtime.
I have no idea how many hours the solar will run per day.

​

​

 

[ajw22]

Will you have two solar controllers for the two arrays?

 

[Julianl50]

Will you have two solar controllers for the two arrays?

My plan is to use nodejs-poolController + REM via Nixie.

 

[mas985]

I'm looking at putting up 14 - 16 Solar thermal panels. @ 5 gpm per i'll need 80 gpm.

I have two pumps and was wondering if splitting the array between pumps would be helpful. The array will be ground mount with the equipment pad beside it. The second pump runs 3 bubblers and deck jets(separately valved).

My assumed benefits for two arrays @40 gpm ea:

Quieter​

More efficient power usage​

​

It will add cost and complexity.

I have two intelliflos 3hp 011056 and 011075.

Am I missing anything?

I used the pump spreadsheet and I think I entered enough data to compare.View attachment 479884

edit: added tldr for table:

If I'm entering good data and my assumptions are correct it seems like it's $84 vs 189 per month for 7hours runtime.
I have no idea how many hours the solar will run per day.

​

​

That only works if you duplicate ALL of the plumbing. You have used the same plumbing curve for the three columns which means that for the two parallel pump version, each pump has it's own set of plumbing completely independent of the other. NO shared plumbing at all. Usually, this is a bad assumption and never the case. More than likely the return side is going to be shared between the pumps so that needs to be taken into account which that tab cannot do. That is a more complicated scenario so a full head calc is necessary. I can help with that but I would need details about the plumbing. Run lengths, number/types of fittings, etc. But I think you will find that the efficiency will not be much better than a single pump.

Also, you would need a second filter for the second pump because you do not want to send unfiltered water to solar panels. They can easily clog.

In summary, I would not recommend doing this.

 

[mas985]

Forgot to mention that if you assume all of the plumbing is shared, not possible with the filter though, then here is a simple analysis using plumbing curves. The plumbing curve for the dual pump is 4x that of the single pump version because you have to take into account the other pumps' flow rate through the plumbing (2^2). So the combined power of the two pumps would be over 1800 watts while the single pump is under 1500 watts.

 

[Julianl50]

Forgot to mention that if you assume all of the plumbing is shared, not possible with the filter though, then here is a simple analysis using plumbing curves. The plumbing curve for the dual pump is 4x that of the single pump version because you have to take into account the other pumps' flow rate through the plumbing (2^2). So the combined power of the two pumps would be over 1800 watts while the single pump is under 1500 watts.

View attachment 480330

This really threw me for a loop. I didn't get until now this was for both pumps competing for the pipe.

I wasn't contemplating that. Really my thought was to have two independent systems.

 

[Julianl50]

That only works if you duplicate ALL of the plumbing. You have used the same plumbing curve for the three columns which means that for the two parallel pump version, each pump has it's own set of plumbing completely independent of the other. NO shared plumbing at all. Usually, this is a bad assumption and never the case. More than likely the return side is going to be shared between the pumps so that needs to be taken into account which that tab cannot do. That is a more complicated scenario so a full head calc is necessary. I can help with that but I would need details about the plumbing. Run lengths, number/types of fittings, etc. But I think you will find that the efficiency will not be much better than a single pump.

Also, you would need a second filter for the second pump because you do not want to send unfiltered water to solar panels. They can easily clog.

In summary, I would not recommend doing this.

I would like to run the numbers for these scenarios.

The first item to figure out is the single pump system. Speaking to two suppliers of panels I have been told:

Set them up as two groups of 8. Then one said run them in parallel and one said series.

Is a reasonable conclusion between the two is that the series would lower pump gpm (45) but reduce panel efficiency? The parallel would get more btu from the panels but gpm (90) would be higher?

Is the heat loss significant when in series? Because it seems that the energy cost would be much more when paralleled .

For just the arrays a series feed would have 2" 15+65+12 and (4) 90's
the parallel has 2" 65+32+32+15 ,(4) 90's, 2 t's.
I'm not including any of the panels headers in these figures
The pad is located right next to the array.
Pad is -30" below BB
suction and return will be home runs. Just like the idea if there is a problem I can Isolate and fix on my own timeline.

Main suction 42' 2.5"
Skimmer 75' and 40'
3 way skim skim skims
3way skims drain pump
Pump 011075
Filter PLF35000 Aquastar
3 way Sensor bypass
3 way solar
check valve solar
Salt Cell
Returns valved (5)
Returns 1.5" 70', 85', 40', 60', 75'

If using Seprate Array scheme:
Feature suction 42' 2.5"
Valve
pump 011056
Filter PLF27000
3 way Solar
Check Valve Solar
3 way Features or Heat Returns
Heat returns (2) 45', 30'. Would just one work with a 2" pipe and with a cover?

I hope this makes sense. At least from a layout POV.

At this point it seems that the series congiraution would make the most sense.

But am very curious as to the impacts of the various other setups.

Please let me know what other data we need.

Thanks

 

[mas985]

Is a reasonable conclusion between the two is that the series would lower pump gpm (45) but reduce panel efficiency? The parallel would get more btu from the panels but gpm (90) would be higher?

GPM is the same. It should be 0.1 GPM/sq-ft no matter how you configure the panels. But series panels are less efficient for BOTH heat transfer and electricity usage.

Is the heat loss significant when in series? Because it seems that the energy cost would be much more when paralleled .

It depends but why would you even consider this when it doesn't take much to put them in parallel.

There is also a third option where all the panels are connect together and feed on one corner and the return is on the opposite corner. This is normally how panels are plumbed.

I would run the numbers but at this point I am not sure if it would tell you anything we don't already know.

 

[Julianl50]

GPM is the same

Sorry that part I don't get. At the T 45 gpm per array I understand the movement of 90gpm.

how does this happen in series? Doesn't the pipe see 90gpm at all points?