- May 3, 2007
- 16,964
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Double check those two gate valves on the suction side of your pump. Both should be completely open (CCW).
First question ever........
- Thread starter DW
- Start date
I leave the pool side gate valve wide open, unless I running the spa only. Then the pool side gets closed and the spa gate valve gets opened. Again, normal operating for the past 4months has been pool side open; spa side slightly open just to provide some circulation.
if both gate valves are wide open then the spa returns(4) can't keep up with the volume being lost in the drains and the spa levels drop.
Tonight I wrapped the joint leading from the tee to the filter basket and the other two joints leading into the tee with electrical tape and rant he pump for about 5 minutes.....no change in the air bubble against the filter basket lid and bubbles still coming from the pool. I was getting dark so it was hard to tell if it was any better. I'll have to get started a bit earlier tomorrow.
if both gate valves are wide open then the spa returns(4) can't keep up with the volume being lost in the drains and the spa levels drop.
Tonight I wrapped the joint leading from the tee to the filter basket and the other two joints leading into the tee with electrical tape and rant he pump for about 5 minutes.....no change in the air bubble against the filter basket lid and bubbles still coming from the pool. I was getting dark so it was hard to tell if it was any better. I'll have to get started a bit earlier tomorrow.
Don't forget to check the drain plugs on your pump, those can be a source of air leaks and are easy to miss.
Best way to check them is to grab a garden hose, remove the nozzle and run water over them. When you hit the air leak the air bubbles will stop. Don't underestimate this method for finding a suction side air leak. I have always had very good luck with this method. Worse way to check them is to grab your wrench and tighten them and end up breaking them off as others have done. Same goes for your gate valves. Running water over them is quicker, easier and safer then putting a wrench to them.Isaac-1 said:
For a test why not alternate shutting one down with the other wide open to eliminate pool and/or spa as air bubble source?DW said:
Another thought. You mentioned the pump housing lid was over tightened. Any chance something cracked and is letting air in? Again a hose is an easy method to check this. Run water over the entire pump housing.
I don't know if this has been mentioned but having the pool water at the correct skimmer level so no air is getting sucked down by the skimmer is a somewhat common issue. You have to observe the skimmer (pump running) to confirm.
the latest:
Last night I took another look at the pump filter basket lid to see if it was cracked, it wasn't, but after I reinstalled it the air bubble that had been at the top went away after I turned on the system. The pressure also went up to 6 psi with the Heliocol's valve turned OFF. with the Heliocol's turned ON the psi went to 8. ( remember I had been at 2 -4psi). The water pressure is still low though. Two of the three pool returns were getting some flow but the furthest away didn't have any water coming out.
Pump issue???
Heliocol system OFF: very little air running through the system; two of three returns with reduced flow one with no flow(furthest away from the pump)
Heliocol system ON: lots of air bubbles seen; returns the same as above but now the 'no flow' return has lots of bubbles coming out
The see through salt cell housing is directly after the junction of either the filter return or the Heliocol return depending on whether the actuator valve is off or on, so I can easily see whether any air is coming through. The normal operation has lots of air coming through the salt cell right after the actuator valve turns as air is purged from the Heliocols but then after about a minute the bubbles in the return disappear..... Now its a big bubble burst out of all three returns then after a minute only bubbles coming out of the furthest return at a less vigorous but steady pace. What's puzzling is that from what I've read on this forum, that side of the whole system is the pressure side so I'm not sure how the air is getting in.
There is a small upright relief valve on the Heliocols that seems to be for letting air in b/c their is a spring loaded ball about the size off a marble pushing up against the top of the tube it's in. Could that be malfunctioning?
It would appear that my original problem has been solved but another one has now cropped up, or at least been unmasked.
Any further suggestions?
Last night I took another look at the pump filter basket lid to see if it was cracked, it wasn't, but after I reinstalled it the air bubble that had been at the top went away after I turned on the system. The pressure also went up to 6 psi with the Heliocol's valve turned OFF. with the Heliocol's turned ON the psi went to 8. ( remember I had been at 2 -4psi). The water pressure is still low though. Two of the three pool returns were getting some flow but the furthest away didn't have any water coming out.
Pump issue???Heliocol system OFF: very little air running through the system; two of three returns with reduced flow one with no flow(furthest away from the pump)
Heliocol system ON: lots of air bubbles seen; returns the same as above but now the 'no flow' return has lots of bubbles coming out
The see through salt cell housing is directly after the junction of either the filter return or the Heliocol return depending on whether the actuator valve is off or on, so I can easily see whether any air is coming through. The normal operation has lots of air coming through the salt cell right after the actuator valve turns as air is purged from the Heliocols but then after about a minute the bubbles in the return disappear..... Now its a big bubble burst out of all three returns then after a minute only bubbles coming out of the furthest return at a less vigorous but steady pace. What's puzzling is that from what I've read on this forum, that side of the whole system is the pressure side so I'm not sure how the air is getting in.
There is a small upright relief valve on the Heliocols that seems to be for letting air in b/c their is a spring loaded ball about the size off a marble pushing up against the top of the tube it's in. Could that be malfunctioning?
It would appear that my original problem has been solved but another one has now cropped up, or at least been unmasked.
Any further suggestions?
- May 3, 2007
- 16,964
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
What is the height of the panels above the pump?
If they are on a two story building (~25'), the filter pressure must be larger than 11 PSI or the VRV will not remain closed. Pressure drops with elevation so the pressure must be high enough at the filter so with both elevation change and head loss there is still positive pressure at the VRV. So assuming that this worked as some point, there is still something that is reducing the pressure and normally that is either a restriction on the suction side, clogged pipe or impeller.
Have you tried clearing the impeller or back flushing the suction line?
If they are on a two story building (~25'), the filter pressure must be larger than 11 PSI or the VRV will not remain closed. Pressure drops with elevation so the pressure must be high enough at the filter so with both elevation change and head loss there is still positive pressure at the VRV. So assuming that this worked as some point, there is still something that is reducing the pressure and normally that is either a restriction on the suction side, clogged pipe or impeller.
Have you tried clearing the impeller or back flushing the suction line?
Exactly what mas985 said. Your problem seems to be caused by reduced pressure. I would troubleshoot this with your solar panels off. Otherwise you will end up focusing on symptoms of the reduced pressure. If you really thought the VRV was causing your problem you could just replace it with a plug for a test. It's not a good long term solution but I did run for years without a VRV before I finally added one.
Any difference in pressure if you turn off your spa input gate valve or pool input gate valve to the pump? This will help eliminate the suction line from the pump to the pool or spa. At that point there is not much left on the suction side. From there you have the impeller, pump and a possible restriction before pressure gauge (actually pressure side). But not much there either. You are sure you have single speed pump and not a 2 speed you accidently switched to low? (grasping at straws here)
Any difference in pressure if you turn off your spa input gate valve or pool input gate valve to the pump? This will help eliminate the suction line from the pump to the pool or spa. At that point there is not much left on the suction side. From there you have the impeller, pump and a possible restriction before pressure gauge (actually pressure side). But not much there either. You are sure you have single speed pump and not a 2 speed you accidently switched to low? (grasping at straws here)
Thank you for the responses.
Panel height is about 8 feet over the pump with a run of about 10-12 feet from the pump till the vertical run starts. I definitely have single speed pump.
I'm going to place my palm ofer the VRV inlet with the pump running just to see if that is the source of the Air intake. It would make sense that if there is low water pressure the ball might not be tight enough and let in air. This is just for my own curiosity.
I'll also check the pressure gauge after shutting down each gate valve individually, and write the numbers down this time!
I've come to the same conclusion...... low pressure.
From your previous posts there could be 4 reasons for this? let me know if I'm off base or if there are any other things to look for.
suction line restiction
pressure side restiction before the filter gauge
bad impeller
failing motor
How do you flush the impeller? I can try back flushing the suction lines, that won't be hard.
Panel height is about 8 feet over the pump with a run of about 10-12 feet from the pump till the vertical run starts. I definitely have single speed pump.
I'm going to place my palm ofer the VRV inlet with the pump running just to see if that is the source of the Air intake. It would make sense that if there is low water pressure the ball might not be tight enough and let in air. This is just for my own curiosity.
I'll also check the pressure gauge after shutting down each gate valve individually, and write the numbers down this time!
I've come to the same conclusion...... low pressure.
From your previous posts there could be 4 reasons for this? let me know if I'm off base or if there are any other things to look for.
suction line restiction
pressure side restiction before the filter gauge
bad impeller
failing motor
How do you flush the impeller? I can try back flushing the suction lines, that won't be hard.
- May 3, 2007
- 16,964
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
I agree with the first three but a failing motor does not change the pressure. A failing motor will just shut down.DW said:
For the impeller, first remove the pump basket and check the impeller inlet for any debris that might be stuck in there.
Next, flush the suction line backwards.
If neither of those works, then you may need to take apart the pump to see if there is something lodged in the impeller vane.
A simple cause of suction side leaks can also be a missing or malfunctioning weir door. Make sure it opens freely and closes when the pump is off.
Thanks again to all who provided help and suggestions. I hope I can contribute to someone else's problem in the future.
The suction side issue seems to be fixed!!!! To be honest, I don't think I did anything to fix what was wrong and I'm still not sure what was wrong. It's a bit of a mystery. I tinkered with the equipment here and there so I must have fixed something!?
There are no more bubbles coming out of the return lines; no more bubbles/air in the salt cell housing...even with the solar panels turned on; the pressure gauge now reads 12 psi which is more normal and the water pressure out of the returns feels normal.
One question: Knowing a little bit about my set up do you think that moving up to a 2hp motor for the pool pump would clean the water better or is the 1.5hp the right size?
Thanks again, I hope I didn't waste anyone's time.
The suction side issue seems to be fixed!!!! To be honest, I don't think I did anything to fix what was wrong and I'm still not sure what was wrong. It's a bit of a mystery. I tinkered with the equipment here and there so I must have fixed something!?
There are no more bubbles coming out of the return lines; no more bubbles/air in the salt cell housing...even with the solar panels turned on; the pressure gauge now reads 12 psi which is more normal and the water pressure out of the returns feels normal.
One question: Knowing a little bit about my set up do you think that moving up to a 2hp motor for the pool pump would clean the water better or is the 1.5hp the right size?
Thanks again, I hope I didn't waste anyone's time.
Glad to hear you got it solved... whatever it was?
A larger pump will not filter better, in fact, a lower flow pump will filter even better. If you do decide to replace it at some point, I would suggest a 2-speed motor.
A larger pump will not filter better, in fact, a lower flow pump will filter even better. If you do decide to replace it at some point, I would suggest a 2-speed motor.