Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal? (SOLVED)

[Geosage]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

FYI, I spoke with the 'start up' guy, again, keep in mind I do NOT trust him. He said that if the pump is ON at 3450, and the valve is set to 50 spa, 50 pool, that the spa will drain (even though the return is set to 100 spa). He said the Spa should NEVER be set to suck (and fully returned to) unless it is being used.

I called the startup guy with a concern about suction on the pool drains... I noted that they do not suck up sand/grit unless I push it to within ~1in of the intake. Does that sound like the intake is working at full power? This is with the intake set full pool and at 3450 rpm. He said I need to get a brush vacuum.

We took the filter apart because he said to... after figuring it all out and making sure knowing exactly how to put it together afterward, there was a couple of inches of sand in the bottom of the filter (also filling up the square drain access at the bottom). Is this normal?

Here is the stuff (some of it) he took out of the pump basket when first doing start up-

I asked the start up guy about running at 37psi and he said "Yeah, when it runs high, the psi is up"...

Again, keep in mind with all this, at the very least our returns into the spa are clogged or something because when the pump is at 3450 the jets in the spa barely have much flow coming out of them. Also, the 'aerator' pipe has no suction to it.

 

[mas985]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

I would NOT set the spa suction and pool suction to 50/50. That could drain the spa over time. No point in it either since you are returning water to the spa. But 50/50 on the return is ok. That will get chlorinated water to both then. The suction is better off on the pool side.

If you need to clean the pool or spa, use a vacuum because MD's, pool or spa, are worthless at collecting debris on their own. If you push debris towards them, be careful because they clog very easily and are very difficult to unclog. Not really designed for cleaning up debris. A vacuum is much better.

The sand in the filter could be due to debris in the lines and/or pool. But that means the PB was sloppy. That will also clog a filter very quickly so you might want to clean the cartridges and they may need a soak in TSP.

 

[Geosage]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

I just checked again, pump at 3450 (highest setting), intake valve set 50/50 pool and spa, return valve set 100 spa. Spa drains, and water flows out of the skimmer (pushes the basket and the little flapper valve up).

Image is just for reference (not as I state here ->). The "Main" valve in the middle (upper most in the image) is set to the middle (50/50 spa and pool) and the "Return" valve on the right (lower most in the image) is set to the bottom of the photo (100 spa).

I spoke with the start up guy (which keep in mind, I do not trust him AT all)... and he said that the valve should NEVER be 50/50 and ONLY set to spa when being used as a spa.

What I'm beginning to think... is that the action of the spa filling the skimmer even when the pump is on... is showing me that the suction in the system is WAY low... and that something is wrong... the skimmer gushing water when the pump is set like this suggests that the suction can't overcome ~4ft of water pressure?

 

[Geosage]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

I would NOT set the spa suction and pool suction to 50/50. That could drain the spa over time.

Even with the Return valve set 100 to spa (cascading back into pool)?

 

[mas985]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

It might not drain then but what is the point? The spa MD isn't doing anything. You might as well use that suction for the skimmers where it will do the most good.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

I'm not a fluid dynamics kind of guy, but it seems to me that you are not getting 50/50 mix as you think.. One side is connected to a Spa full of water 4 feet above your pool which would have a lot of pressure, while the other side is connect to the skimmer which has basically no water pressure pushing on it. I can imagine that with the pump running most all the water going into the pump would be from the Spa Side.

I bet if you set your intake valve to say 10% spa and 90% Pool it would work better.

Jim R.

 

[Geosage]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

The 10-90 makes sense. I will play with it, but my main concern is that it is indicative of pump suction not being up to par. Our spa returns are not working (when on intake- 100 spa, return 100 spa, aka just running the jets and having spa mode on) and bow very little water if any out into the spa.

 

[Geosage]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

Just to keep the spa clean etc. is the thought behind it. I have a few friends and neighbors (and a friend who just bought a house and the previous owner said it) that run the intake at 50/50 during regular filtering... none of their pools overflow from the skimmer when doing this.

Could a check valve not be installed onto the pool intake so as to keep water from flowing back into the skimmer?

 

[mas985]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

But it isn't necessary. Returning water to the spa spills over to the pool replacing the spa water with filtered water.

Also I don't think I ever mentioned a skimmer overflowing.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

We have a couple of really good pump people that I hope chime in.. but until they do... I suspect that you don't have flow to your Spa because it is 4 feet in the air.

I know that just to get my waterfall wall to operate I have to run my pump at 2,700 RPM and my wall is only 18" high... I can't imagine how much effort it would be to move it up to 4 feet or more.

Jim R.

 

[Geosage]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

Sorry, mixed up my threads (other thread on here), a lot going on with my pool. Yeah, when the pump is on at 3450 (highest setting), intake valve set 50/50 pool and spa, return valve set 100 spa. The spa drains, and water flows out of the skimmer (pushes the basket and the little flapper valve up) into the pool.

 

[Geosage]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

I do hope they chime in... if that is the case... I don't know what I'll do... the PB has made tons of mistakes before... if they planned the entire project and the spa doesn't even work... we'll have to really play some hardball with them (again). I've been a nervous wreck since the pool was filled in (also just most of the project anyways).

 

[xyz]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

Those blue valves look like they are closed...

For reference, my spa is higher than my pool, and works fine in the setting you state.

You would not need 90% unless the head pressure to the spa is much higher than the pool. Would 4 feet do it? I doubt it. That is like 2 psi and you pump is cranking. However, if there is a lot of restriction to the spa, that would explain it. What is your filter pressure when you send it 100% to you spa? Same question for 100% to the pool. Give us those two numbers and we can go from there.

 

[bdavis466]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

Your spa is much higher than the pool and likely higher than the pump as well. For your pump to draw from the pool it needs to create a lower pressure than atmospheric within the pump basket in order for water to be forced up into the pump. The spa is the opposite situation and requires no pressure differential because it is already being fed by gravity.

The pool and spa suction valve should never be split. It should either be fully to the pool suction or fully to the spa suction.

Since you do not have automation (I don't recall if you do but there is no mention in the signature), you will need to use the spa make up line to circulate water into the spa. This will mean that whenever the pump is running, you will have water flowing out the spillway.

The spa holds a fraction of the water that the pool does so much more flow should be directed at the pool. Pulling any amount of water from the spa with the suction valve even cracked will always result in dropping the level of the spa.

[Edit] I don't see a spa make up line in your plumbing so you will need to crack the pool/spa return line 90/10 to achieve the circulation needed.

 

[JamesW]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

Water is flowing out of the skimmer?

Sounds like the plumbing is mixed up.

 

[xyz]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

I don't see a spa make up line in your plumbing so you will need to crack the pool/spa return line 90/10 to achieve the circulation needed.

I think Brian figured it out if this is the case.

 

[Geosage]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

My theory, is that when the intake valve is 50/50, the pump is not sucking much (something is likely wrong in the system due to the spa returns not spitting out much water when the pump is at max) and the suction of the pump is in fact so little that it's not able to compensate for the pressure of ~42in of the spa being above the pool. As others have said, when the pump is off, makes sense, but when it's sucking at max power (3450rpm)?

 

[bdavis466]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

Is there a different photo of the equipment pad? I'm thinking it's out of the picture but I don't see a check valve either.

On the return side plumbing, keep in mind that the pool returns will also have much less resistance since there are more returns, they are much lower than the spa returns, and they don't have the added resistance of the jet nozzles. It would be as if your pump can push water downhill to the pool or uphill to the spa. The pressure would have to exceed the pool resistance by enough to account for the increased head of the elevation and restricted flow in the spa. Elevation alone would account for .5 PSI per foot of height difference from the eye of the pump.

 

[pooldv]

Re: Filter pressure guage reads 40 psi when running, normal?

Sounds like the return eyeballs in the pool and spa jets need to be removed to check for debris behind them.

 

[Geosage]

Re: Should I be able to pull from my spa and pool at the same time?

Those blue valves look like they are closed...

They're adjusted at an angle to allow the desired flow to the vertical descents. I haven't used that setting much just it was set to it at the time of this photo.

You would not need 90% unless the head pressure to the spa is much higher than the pool. Would 4 feet do it? I doubt it. That is like 2 psi and you pump is cranking. However, if there is a lot of restriction to the spa, that would explain it. What is your filter pressure when you send it 100% to you spa? Same question for 100% to the pool. Give us those two numbers and we can go from there.

I will run all sorts of things tomorrow morning and give you those numbers.

The spa holds a fraction of the water that the pool does so much more flow should be directed at the pool. Pulling any amount of water from the spa with the suction valve even cracked will always result in dropping the level of the spa.

Even with the return set 100% to the spa?

I don't see a spa make up line in your plumbing so you will need to crack the pool/spa return line 90/10 to achieve the circulation needed.

What is a spa make up? I will post a better pic of the entire equipment pad tomorrow as well as a diagram I'm making for reference.

Is there a different photo of the equipment pad? I'm thinking it's out of the picture but I don't see a check valve either.

I'll get you one tomorrow, there are 2 check valves, one on the return coming out of the heater, and then one going to the spa which is barely visible in the pic above on the very bottom edge of the shot (below the lowest valve).

On the return side plumbing, keep in mind that the pool returns will also have much less resistance since there are more returns, they are much lower than the spa returns, and they don't have the added resistance of the jet nozzles.

The pool has 3 returns and the spa has 7 returns (which are the jets). The spa jets/returns and pool returns are all the same nozzles (a sort of flush adjustable nozzle).

Thanks for your help guys, it is much appreciated. I will speak with the PB tomorrow as they will be informed of our issues... we'll see what happens.