Fact or Fiction

[Pool Novice2]

I'm at the 11th hour in selecting a building for an in-ground 18x36 vinyl lined pool with deep end for diving board. I'm located in Long Island. I have three questions that I cannot seem to resolve...perhaps someone can definitively help. Here are my questions:

1. Steel walls vs concrete walls (vinyl covered in each case)? My pool will have a salt chlorine generator. I've read on the internet that salt/chlorine pool does not mix well with a vinyl lined steel wall pool, specifically due to potential rust and corrosion with salt/steel. I'm aware the salt content in the pool will be extremely low and nothing like the ocean. Regardless, I read (again internet) that the small amount of increased salt has significant detrimental impact on steel walls. Of course, the steel wall builder says it's fiction. If the liner ever leaks, I'll notice it ASAP before any damage is done. Is this fact or fiction? Do I need to choose a vinyl lined concrete pool? The cost is approx 7-10% more, which is fine..if it's actually necessary.

2. Choice of heat pump vs gas heater. One builders seem very determined to sell gas and others heat pump. I'm generally aware of the pros and cons...heat pump costs more $$ up front, but more energy efficient from an energy cost perspective, takes longer to heat the pool and only heats when outside temps are greater than 60 degrees. Gas heater is cheaper upfront, heats pool much faster, but is most likely less efficient and will generally cost more to heat pool over course of the summer.

3. Value of liner warranties. Are these worth anything? Has anyone ever cashed in on a liner warranty or is it total fluff.

This pool will be in the shade for much of the day and will be used 3-4x per week. Probably has a season of late May to early September. Any help is really appreciated.

 

[duraleigh]

Welcome to the forum.

1. I would take a concrete walled pool over a steel wall virtually every time. Aside from the cost, almost everything else is a benefit

2. Gas Heater. If you lived in VA or NC, a heat pump may make sense....certainly in FL. But in your cold climate, (Thanks for posting your location.....newbies don't always see that as important.) you will fare better with a Gas heater

3. I would not worry about a liner warranty. However, that's subjective.....others may disagree. I'm sure any liner warranty is prorated and not useful if the liner is damaged........that leaves most of the liner problems uncovered except for manufacturing defects.

 

[Pool Novice2]

Hi...thanks for the reply. You wrote...aside from cost, everything else is a benefit. What are those (everything else) benefits? Thanks.

 

[gwegan]

I'll expand on Dave's comments it a bit.

All Steel walled pools will eventually corrode. Salt or no salt. Water next to iron or steel will eventually cause a problem with the steel. Will it be 5 years or ten years? Or will it last 20? Who knows. If you have high moisture soil that will not help. Concrete walls are stronger and will last longer -- they will last 20 years. They generally care little about liner leaks or soil moisture.

Soil moisture is important we see numerous posts on here each year of problems caused by soil moisture.

 

[Magvallo]

Hi,

We had the same questions when we started. At the end of the day we went with concrete. It's basically the same building process used to build basement walls. 10" 4000psi rebar reinforced monolithic pour. That being said, I know friends with 25+ steel wall pools who never had any major issues. There was a minimal cost difference but no where near the price difference jumping up to fiberglass or plaster. Try to keep all of the equipment similar when you shop. I found one of the lower priced steel builders was offering lower priced equipment. When we questioned the equipment he changed us to the "gold package" as you can imagine the priced jumped. I would suggest a VS motor. They come with a $350 rebate and will cost less to operate. We had to go with a heat pump as there is no gas service on my block. I agree that gas will heat faster and would have been my first choice. My heat pump mfg aqua comfort claims to work in temps as low 40 degrees but I can not confirm that. I'll be adding solar panels down the road so op cost should be excellent down the road. There are many excellent builders in LI. Good luck!


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[Divin Dave]

Just as a thought, the 3rd option for pool walls are the composite ones like I have. They don't have corrosion issues, are stronger than steel, are easy to install and I would hazard to guess that they cost less than cinder block.

 

[Pool Novice2]

Hi Dave...Thanks. I looked into it briefly, but cannot find any builder on Long Island that uses composite walls.

 

[JVTrain]

I'd choose concrete over steel walls as well. No worries about corrosion and will last longer. If there is a liner leak, the concrete won't much care. With steel, it will decrease the life of the pool wall. I'd be intrigued by those composite walls though. Too bad they're not available in your area.

Natural gas does make more sense for your location. I love my gas heater because of its ability to heat quickly. It allows me to bump my temperature up temporarily when needed in the spring and late summer/fall to get that first party in when school gets out and last hurrah before school starts again. Many times I let the temp drop during the week (if it does) then heat it up on Thursday or Friday night so it's warmer for the weekend. I REALLY wish I had an autocover to keep the pool warmer more easily (no solar cover) buy I don't exactly have ~$12,000 laying around for an autocover.

I'll echo on the liner warranty as well. Warranty coverage is likely to be prorated based on age of the liner. There's almost no chance you'll have an issue with a liner in the first couple years. If you do, it's likely that chemistry was terrible and warranty will not cover that. Go for a quality liner with a builder that will stand behind it.

 

[TexasDeano]

I'll add my two cents because I struggled with the heater vs. heat pump question as well. Living in Texas makes a heat pump really attractive. However, based on my research, I'm not sure they are worth it in colder climates like yours. Plus, and this is the main reason I went with a gas heater, heat pumps take a long time to warm a pool from it's normal temperature when it is cold outside. A gas heater lets you warm your pool for special events during the winter (parties, holidays, Super Bowl, etc.).

 

[shakham]

#2 ... I had one builder swear by gas, and 2nd swear by heat pump. I'm in the middle of making this same choice right now.

Here is an interesting thread on the subject...
http://www.troublefreepool.com/threads/25582-Gas-heater-vs-Heat-pump

I'm originally from Montreal where heat pumps are very common for homes. I think the big issue is a heat pump is used differently than a gas heater. Most people use gas heaters on a random schedule. So a few hours before you know you are going to swim, you turn it on, and then you turn it off.

This is how it works for a home...
Heat pumps are meant to be left on all the time at a set temperature. They take a long time to increase heat, but are very efficient at maintaining a temperature. In homes up north, heat pumps are meant to run up to -15C, after which backup heat (either electric, oil, gas) turn on. Another caveat I see is that the thermostat waits a set amount of time (say 45 minutes), and if the heat pump can't bring up the temp to the set temperature, it turns on the backup heat. Now remember that the 45 minutes is to bring the temp up 0.5C or 1C, not more.

If I extrapolate this to a pool...
I'm assuming (A) you need to need to leave the heat pump on all the time and, (B) you can't be wildly varying the water temperature you need. So you can't set it to 82F and then want 88F in the next hour.

The impression I got was that it is more efficient to run a heat pump 24/7 than run gas when needed. I don't know if this is true.

Here is an article stating heat pump cost $100/mo and gas $500/mo:
http://homeguides.sfgate.com/cost-comparison-running-electric-vs-gas-pool-heater-103068.html

Heat pump is a riskier proposition IMO, as it is more external temperature sensitive. I wonder if you want to go for a swim in the morning after a 60F night, will the pool be warm enough?

This is what it came down for me...
If I can run a heat pump 24/7 and spend around the same amount of money per season as using gas sporadically, I see no reason to go with gas. Even if it is slightly more, the convenience of having the pool ready 24/7 is worth it to me.

Worse case I can lay the ground work for some sort of future backup to the heat pump...maybe electric heat? Dunno.

 

[jtrovato21]

We are in MA also and went back and forth on the decision of gas vs. heat pump. I have gas at my house, so it comes down to what is going to be more efficient. The pool builder we are using said it comes down to how you want to use the heater. If you want to use the heater to maintain a constant temperature throughout the swimming season, then a heat pump is the way to go. If you want to just heat it for the occasional party or weekend swim, then go with gas. We want to open the pool, get it to 84-85 degrees by late May/early June, and leave it that way until mid-September. With that info, he said heat pump is the most efficient way to maintain that temperature. My mother just recently installed a heat pump on her pool and operates it in the same way, she set the temp to 84 a couple weeks after opening (let the sun warm it up a bit before kicking on the heater), and just left it that way the whole season. By doing this, the heat pump comes on less often and is just maintaining, which is more efficient than using gas to do the same.

So, how do you want to heat your pool? Set it to a temp and leave it that way? Or just warm it up quickly when you want to swim or have a party? That should be your decision point.

 

[shakham]

We are in MA also and went back and forth on the decision of gas vs. heat pump. I have gas at my house, so it comes down to what is going to be more efficient. The pool builder we are using said it comes down to how you want to use the heater. If you want to use the heater to maintain a constant temperature throughout the swimming season, then a heat pump is the way to go. If you want to just heat it for the occasional party or weekend swim, then go with gas. We want to open the pool, get it to 84-85 degrees by late May/early June, and leave it that way until mid-September. With that info, he said heat pump is the most efficient way to maintain that temperature. My mother just recently installed a heat pump on her pool and operates it in the same way, she set the temp to 84 a couple weeks after opening (let the sun warm it up a bit before kicking on the heater), and just left it that way the whole season. By doing this, the heat pump comes on less often and is just maintaining, which is more efficient than using gas to do the same.

So, how do you want to heat your pool? Set it to a temp and leave it that way? Or just warm it up quickly when you want to swim or have a party? That should be your decision point.

So here is my question....
How much would it cost to run gas sometimes?
How much would it cost to run the heat pump all season?

Maybe some people can respond with their seasonal costs...
Info we need...
1) Gas or heat pump
2) Cost for season
3) Region, geographical location
4) Months pool is running
5) How often pool is actually heated (aka heating turned on).
6) Price per Therm or KWH (courtesy of BigEinAZ)
7) Size of unit (BTU).
8) any other factors that affect usage (aka solar blanket, shaded area, etc).

Maybe if we get a few data points, we can figure something out.

 

[Pool Novice2]

We are in MA also and went back and forth on the decision of gas vs. heat pump. I have gas at my house, so it comes down to what is going to be more efficient. The pool builder we are using said it comes down to how you want to use the heater. If you want to use the heater to maintain a constant temperature throughout the swimming season, then a heat pump is the way to go. If you want to just heat it for the occasional party or weekend swim, then go with gas. We want to open the pool, get it to 84-85 degrees by late May/early June, and leave it that way until mid-September. With that info, he said heat pump is the most efficient way to maintain that temperature. My mother just recently installed a heat pump on her pool and operates it in the same way, she set the temp to 84 a couple weeks after opening (let the sun warm it up a bit before kicking on the heater), and just left it that way the whole season. By doing this, the heat pump comes on less often and is just maintaining, which is more efficient than using gas to do the same.

So, how do you want to heat your pool? Set it to a temp and leave it that way? Or just warm it up quickly when you want to swim or have a party? That should be your decision point.

My goal is to be able to use the pool whenever I want and have it be a comfortable temperature...Tues night, Friday morning, Sunday afternoon, whenever. Based on that, I was leaning toward a heat pump....until a recent PB told me the heat pump would have trouble getting the pool to a comfortable temp in a hurry after a big rain or cold snap because my pool is mostly in the shade and will suffer from needing lots of heat bc it will lack significant sun. Personally, I assumed those characteristics were made for a heat pump, because I would need it running a lot to keep it comfortable...but he was basically saying the HP would struggle to maintain temp and I should go with gas heater to get it to tmep quick anytime I want to use it.

 

[BigEinAZ]

So here is my question....
How much would it cost to run gas sometimes?
How much would it cost to run the heat pump all season?

Maybe some people can respond with their seasonal costs...
Info we need...
1) Gas or heat pump
2) Cost for season
3) Region, geographical location
4) Months pool is running
5) How often pool is actually heated (aka heating turned on).

Maybe if we get a few data points, we can figure something out.

You'd need price per Therm for gas and price per KWH for electric as well to make a comparison meaningful.

 

[Veccster]

All of the points discussed above are what I found in my research as well. Because I'm not installing a spa that needs to heat quickly, I do not need to fluctuate the temp quickly. I want consistent warmth all season long.

BUT....I was also told by several builders that longevity of the heat exchanger should be factored in as well. The gas units use copper exchnagers and are more susceptible to corrosion. The heat pump uses titanium or stainless steel and lasts much longer.

The other downside to a heat pump is that it will not operate in temperatures under 55'F.

I can't speak from experience but I recently decided on a Heat Pump and live in Pittsburgh, PA.

 

[Kiss4aFrog]

Welcome to TFP Pool Novice2

 

[jtrovato21]

My mother looked at her electrical usage before and after the heat pump. Over the last two seasons, she has averaged about 491 kWh extra per month to keep the heat pump on all the time and set at 85, starting the week before Memorial Day and going through the 2nd week of September. Electricity costs about 18.5 cents/kWh in our area, so that's about $90.90/month to keep the pool set at 85 all summer long. Now I just got solar panels installed on my house for electric and am paying a rate of 12.9 cents/kWh, so for me it would only cost $63.34/month to heat the pool, all other factors being the same. Not a bad price to pay to have 85 degree water whenever you want to jump in. I have to assume you're going to pay more than that to use gas in the same way. If you don't heat all week long and only plan to bump up the temp on the weekends or for a party, gas is the way to go.

This is with using a solar blanket all the time when the pool is not in use. The filter and heat pump are set to run for 8 hrs during the day I believe. You want to make sure you are only running the heat pump during the day to get the most efficiency out of it since it is dependent on outside air temp. Running it overnight is a waste of money. She found that out the first month she had it!

As for up front costs, we have gotten quotes for both. While the heat pump costs more for the unit itself, the cost to run the dedicated 1" gas line to the gas heater makes up for the difference. When you add the cost of the unit, the plumber and/or electrician costs in for each option, they are virtually the same up front cost.

 

[shakham]

My mother looked at her electrical usage before and after the heat pump. Over the last two seasons, she has averaged about 491 kWh extra per month to keep the heat pump on all the time and set at 85, starting the week before Memorial Day and going through the 2nd week of September. Electricity costs about 18.5 cents/kWh in our area, so that's about $90.90/month to keep the pool set at 85 all summer long. Now I just got solar panels installed on my house for electric and am paying a rate of 12.9 cents/kWh, so for me it would only cost $63.34/month to heat the pool, all other factors being the same. Not a bad price to pay to have 85 degree water whenever you want to jump in. I have to assume you're going to pay more than that to use gas in the same way. If you don't heat all week long and only plan to bump up the temp on the weekends or for a party, gas is the way to go.

This is with using a solar blanket all the time when the pool is not in use. The filter and heat pump are set to run for 8 hrs during the day I believe. You want to make sure you are only running the heat pump during the day to get the most efficiency out of it since it is dependent on outside air temp. Running it overnight is a waste of money. She found that out the first month she had it!

What did you find out the first month?

Also I assume you don't get 85 degree in the AM, no?

As for up front costs, we have gotten quotes for both. While the heat pump costs more for the unit itself, the cost to run the dedicated 1" gas line to the gas heater makes up for the difference. When you add the cost of the unit, the plumber and/or electrician costs in for each option, they are virtually the same up front cost.

This is what I found out too, but my gas unit is pretty far away. Also I believe I would need to upgrade my gas meter as well which is an additional cost. It might be cheaper for those guys that have the heat pump close to their gas meter, and can just connect it.

 

[jtrovato21]

What did you find out the first month?

Also I assume you don't get 85 degree in the AM, no?



This is what I found out too, but my gas unit is pretty far away. Also I believe I would need to upgrade my gas meter as well which is an additional cost. It might be cheaper for those guys that have the heat pump close to their gas meter, and can just connect it.

She found out that running it overnight was a waste. She ran it 24/7 for a week to get it heated up, but realized quickly that the temp was only rising a couple degrees over the 8 hours or so that it was running overnight. When the outside temps drop significantly at night in the early and late season, the efficiency drops off quickly. We found that if you just run it during the daytime when the temps are 65+, you get a lot more heat gain, about 1 degree/hour.

As for in the AM, I'm not sure, I'm usually not there early in the morning to check, we would always be there in the afternoon time to swim and it would be right back to 85. I think she said she noticed a couple degree drop in the overnight hours with the solar blanket on when the nights drop down into the 50s. Less heat loss when the overnight temps get into the high 60s and 70s later in the summer.

 

[Pool Novice2]

More Questions

Thanks for recent feedback on concrete vs steel. Price difference is small enough that it makes sense to go with concrete. Appreciate it. Probably leaning toward heat pump vs gas heater because I think the pool will be used enough and without warning that I'll want to keep temp relatively warm as much as possible. Two more questions:
1. I've read (here and otherwise) that heat pump takes longer to get to temp and can struggle to bring pool temp back up after cold rain in Northeast (Long Island). Understanding that concept, does anyone try to push the heat a little higher prior to a storm...so while the pool may lose 10 degrees, you only need to recover 5 degrees because you pushed the heat up an extra 5 degree before storm? Meaning, instead of leaving pool at 85 degree goal (and then falling to 75), you push heat to 90 degrees and then it only falls to 80? Or, does the starting temp not matter that much, because cold weather will push temp down regardless?
2. Vinyl thickness. PBs seem to be downplaying vs what I've read on internet (incidentally...while I have a dog, I do not expect to have him in the pool). Do I need to push for thicker mil liner...and pay more if it's special order for my PB?
Thanks.