Exact nature of harm from sodium bromide algaecides

PowerPigg!!

Active member
May 14, 2019
33
Miami, FL
Pool Size
4300
Surface
Vinyl
Chlorine
Liquid Chlorine
My recent experience going through a SLAM for mustard algae in my above-ground pool made me think about the recommendations against use of any kind of algaecide in the process, and sodium bromide algaecide specifically.

Someone stated that applying any bromine to a chlorine pool turns it into a bromine pool where any future addition of chlorine gets turned to bromine. This makes no sense to me. I do not know of any chemical reaction that can turn chlorine atoms into bromine, so my first guess is that I am misunderstanding what is meant by "turns into a bromine pool".

I also question the suggestion that bromine stays in your pool forever once added. I read mentions of this multiple times while reading up ahead of my SLAM but I would like to understand how exactly this would be the case in an outdoor pool. Is this just a function of bromine being much less likely to evaporate at normal outdoor temperatures than chlorine? Why would the lack of a UV stabilizer chemical for bromine then rule out its use in outdoor pools if it's so hardy and resistant to evaporation at normal outdoor temperatures?

I'm not trying to say, why not bromine instead of chlorine for outdoor pools. Rather I'm trying to understand why exactly, would use of a bromide-based algaecide be anywhere near to an irreversible action, and whether in fact its benefit in speeding up eradication of something so naturally chlorine-resistant actually outweighs the risks in increased chlorine use down the line?

How long would an algaecide dose's amount of bromine actually stick around in a summer outdoor pool before becoming effectively gone? Are we talking days, weeks, or a few months? Is there actually a chemical mechanism where amount of bromine in the water actually increases by virtue of regular chlorination? And finally, are there other considerations at work within the context of the TFP approach that prompt the blanket recommendation (such as, maybe small bromine content can still throw off testing accuracy in a chlorine pool).

I question this specific case because I sense a resistance to using any kind of algaecide, even polyquat, even in cases where some initial dosing would clearly aid in speeding up cleanup of heavy algae infestation without increasing risk to equipment. (Note that I am fully on board with avoiding metal-based algaecides--I am very clear on the reasons these are best avoided in almost all cases.) I wonder why It's not even presented as an optional consideration with an up-front caveat (choose this higher cost option for faster recovery) in special cases outside the norm.

I posted this in the Deep End because I really want to get the details that will inform my own choices for my pool, and I know there are really knowledgeablepeople here who can further explain the rationale behind these recommendations. I love the idea behind the TFP method of taking control over one's own pool from the pool shop, and for me that includes not forgoing a useful tool simply because it is special-purpose.
 
You misunderstand the chemistry and you're making some assertions that are not true. Let me deal with two -

1. You can't turn chlorine atoms into bromine atoms ...

True. But nuclear reactors have nothing to do with it.

Bromine is added to a pool as bromide salt. In other words it's a bromine atom with a -1 oxidation state. Sodium bromide (NaBr) is the main salt of bromine that gets added to a pool. So how does bromide sanitize a pool ... it doesn't. Bromide ions are completely inert. The way you make bromide ions turn into to sanitizing bromine (Br+) ions, is by oxidizing the bromide into bromine. Then the bromine forms an active sanitizing compound hypobromous acid (HOBr). What oxidizes bromide (Br-) into bromine (Br+) ... a strong oxidizer like chlorine (either hypochlorous acid or hypochlorite anion).

So, when bromide ions are present in water, the addition of chlorine into the water causes a chemical reaction. The bromide ion is oxidized into bromine and the chlorine ion is reduced to chloride. This reactions is fast and one-sided ... that means that, as long as there enough bromide ions in the water, any addition of chlorine will be completely consumed turning the bromide into bromine and the chlorine into chloride.

The pool will now be a brominated swimming pool.

2. Chlorine evaporates easily and needs a stabilizer, but bromine does not ...

This is a misunderstanding of how chlorine is used up in a swimming pool and a misapplication of the term evaporates.

Evaporation implies that a chemical compound converts into a gaseous phase and that there is a driving force that removes that phase from the water and puts it into the atmosphere. First, nothing "evaporates" from the water. Not chlorine, not bromine. Both of those atoms stay firmly fixed in the solution. There is no appreciable loss of either of those chemicals to any volatile species that might leave the water. Both chlorine and bromine interact with UV light which reduces both of those energetic ions to there -1 oxidation state. In other words, when chlorine reacts with UV light it is reduced to chloride and when bromine reacts with UV light, it is reduced to bromide. Nothing ever leaves the water.

What cyanuric acid stabilizer does is to react with and bond to the active chlorine ion and form a bonded compound called a chlorinated cyanurate. These cyanurates are immune to UV light and protect the chlorine atom from being converted to chloride. The cyanuartes themselves also absorb light in the UV spectrum and re-radiate it at a lower wavelength, typically IR or as heat. Bromine, on the other hand, has no comparable chemical reaction with cyanurates and thus can not be stabilized against UV photolysis.

So, when a pool has bromine in it, the loss rate of bromine to UV photolysis will be orders of magnitude higher than chlorine and it will be the dominant mechanism for loss of bromine. When you add bromine to an outdoor pool, it needs a continual source of oxidation to convert it from spent bromide back into bromine. Bather waste will consume some of the bromine but most of it will be converted back to bromide by UV light. By contrast, in a chlorinated swimming pool with CYA, most of the loss is due to bather waste, biological disinfection and chemical oxidation, and very little of it is due to UV photolysis.
 
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To be absolutely clear: sodium bromide is NOT an algaecide. By itself it is nothing but an inert salt. It is sold as an algaecide because pool store water care is awful and pools commonly end up horribly overstabilized with CYA. When this happens the pool store fixes the mistake they made by instructing the owner to make more mistakes. The wonders of taking advice from someone with a profit to make.

In a pool that is not overstabilized there is no benefit from adding sodium bromide. It just makes a bromine pool. In an overstabilized pool it still makes a bromine pool, but because that then takes the massive CYA problem out of the equation, it allows an adequate amount of sanitizer and oxidizer (in the form of bromine) to be present. However, then you get to deal with a bromine pool. The sodium bromide that makes a pool a bromine pool does not go away in a reasonable time, it's nearly impossible to measure how much bromide is in a pool, and it removed the benefits of CYA. The answer to having too much CYA is to remove it, not to create all new problems by ignoring it.

Sodium bromide is not a "useful tool", it is in fact the best way to ruin your water chemistry permanently. Despite your insinuation, we do not rule pool chemicals out just because they're different. There's a lot of chemical and practical understanding within the membership of this forum of what various chemicals do in a pool and the opinions you find here are based on that combined knowledge. We don't push algaecides because they do not have a benefit in most situations (most especially not in the example you give as polyquat would cause considerably increased chlorine demand while providing little to no acceleration of a SLAM) and we don't push sodium bromide because it is not a good answer to any problem a pool owner may have.
 
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Wow. So what I am understanding is that compounds sold as Stop Yellow or others based on sodium bromide will, when used in sufficient amounts, effectively rob you of the stabilizing benefit of cyanuric acid by making most of your chlorine go not towards disinfection but rather feeding the bromine-bromide see-saw that JoyfulNoise described. This is done ON PURPOSE? Because it seems the end result of this is that you're chewing through chlorine faster now and visiting the store more often to buy more.

What I didn't really get from JoyfulNoise's explanation is a sense of the scale. How harmful is the addition of a recommended dose of this stuff, in terms of how far does it get you to that point where chlorine is quickly and constantly consumed, making it effectively impossible to keep your pool sanitized over time?

Note that this is not an actual issue I am dealing with--my questions come with an implicit assumption that there are good reasons for any direct recommendations, which I seek to understand in more detail.

We don't push algaecides because they do not have a benefit in most situations (most especially not in the example you give as polyquat would cause considerably increased chlorine demand while providing little to no acceleration of a SLAM)

Oh, I realize that adding this during SLAM would just give the chlorine something else to chew on before it had a chance to do much of anything, and would in the end be counterproductive. I did not properly explain my idea. My thought was more as an precipitation aid (given its flocculant properties) instead of or in conjunction with a polymer-based clarifier, before any chlorine is added or any circulation or filtering is run, so that more of the algae in a heavy cleanup can be vacuumed to waste up front rather than oxidized and removed over several days via filtering. The Pool School SLAM article does say to try to clear as much debris as possible before starting, but I wonder why there is not guidance on ways to precipitate out debris and organic matter from heavy algae infestations before starting SLAM on those. I imagine this has been considered so I must assume there is no universally "safe" method to do this? (I'm realizing now this might have been better as a separate topic-- I'll be happy to open a separate post for this if appropriate.)
 
Yellow Out is not sodium bromide, it's EDTA. That's a different, but also very bad algaecide as well.

Stop Yellow is a sodium bromide based algaecide. Typical dosing instructions for sodium bromide is around 6oz per 10,000 gallons of water along with several pounds of granular shock (either cal-hypo or dichlor). At that dosing rate, you are roughly adding 5ppm bromide to the water which will consumer around 2ppm chlorine. As the bromine gets spent by UV light or disinfection, it will convert back to bromide and continue to consume chlorine until all of the chlorine is gone. Seeing as how many pool owners are impatient, they will typically add more than the recommended amount (it's sold in 2 lb bottles as well as 6oz packets). Algae will respond quickly but the pool will be significantly brominated.

Bromide ions can undergo two different forms of oxidation - sanitizing bromine can be created but there is also a reaction that turns bromide into bromate (BrO3-). Bromates form mainly under alkaline conditions so the reaction of chlorine with bromide mainly forms bromine. However, over long periods of time and with sufficient oxidation, bromide will eventually transform into bromate and no longer cause chlorine demand. That process can take months depending on the concentrations involved.
 
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Yellow Out is not sodium bromide, it's EDTA. That's a different, but also very bad algaecide as well.

Just to clarify this statement a bit - not everything that is called “Yellow whatever” is sodium bromide. In fact, there are two pool products called “Yellow Out” where one manufacturer used sodium bromide and another uses a mixture of EDTA & and ammonium salts. While the EDTA/Ammonium stuff is bad, it will eventually breakdown and go away as opposed to the sodium bromide product that will last a very long time. So it can sometimes be highly confusing to go by just the product name. Which is why TFP always urges pool owners to READ THE LABEL and know what it is you are buying.
 
And, in most cases, read the label, put it back on the shelf and then run away as fast as you can.

Preach GIF
 
If you want a really effective product for eliminating yellow algae, I make a special blend of the following and sell it on eBay.

SDS: Ammonium bromide (17%), potassium persulfate (17%), aluminum chlorohydrate (17%), copper sulfate (17%), tripotassium phosphate (17%), silver nitrate (15%).

It’s only $250.00 per 10 lb bucket and it is guaranteed.*

*Terms and conditions apply.
 
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SDS: Ammonium bromide (17%), potassium persulfate (17%), aluminum chlorohydrate (17%), copper sulfate (17%), tripotassium phosphate (17%), silver nitrate (15%).

It’s only $250.00 per 10 lb bucket and it is guaranteed.*
I'll go out on a limb and guess that SDS stands for Sanity Destroying System. I thought Skin Destroying System at first because of the silver nitrate and the phosphate super-soap but I suspect the real fun is in the interactions.

Can I at least assume that this mixture will not immediately explode/set water on fire/generate enough heat to melt vinyl when added to pool water?
 

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Wow. So what I am understanding is that compounds sold as Stop Yellow or others based on sodium bromide will, when used in sufficient amounts, effectively rob you of the stabilizing benefit of cyanuric acid by making most of your chlorine go not towards disinfection but rather feeding the bromine-bromide see-saw that JoyfulNoise described. This is done ON PURPOSE? Because it seems the end result of this is that you're chewing through chlorine faster now and visiting the store more often to buy more.

You may have stumbled upon the pool store truth: they exist to make a profit, and if your pool happens to look nice while they do, it’s considered an added bonus to them.
 
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