Thanks for all the advice. I'm 100% certain I can do the bypass myself and 90% certain I can do the rest. I've got the parts on the way. Just waiting for nice(r) weather.
Equipment Pad Plumbing Rework - Advice Wanted
- Thread starter Ds3161
- Start date
Thanks for all the advice. I'm 100% certain I can do the bypass myself and 90% certain I can do the rest. I've got the parts on the way. Just waiting for nice(r) weather.
Ahultin
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One comment on this drawing, Given that the pump you are using has only a 2" output flange, I doubt that the ~1ft of 2.5" pipe will make a ton of difference to flow (maybe someone with fluid dynamics experience can comment) so i would simplify the plumbing of the 2 mains and save yourself from needing a bunch of bushings. You are 2" into Jandy valves, 2.5" out through the t and to the 3 way 2.5x3" valve.
The idea is that when the two combine flow into a T, the input can’t be smaller than the output or you won’t get any more flow than a single pipe alone would provide. So a T taking in 2.5 can’t have more than 2.5 even if you go to a 3. However , if you take two 2” and flow it into a tee that outlets 3” then you will get closer to the 3” flow. So the tee needs to be 3”x3”x3” because they don’t seem to make a 2x2x3 or 2.5x2.5x3. In other words bring 4 inches of flow together to a 3” inlet. At least that is the hope. Because one of the issues with the other setup was not enough supply. We shall see I guess. We may have to try some things out to figure out optimal flow. The math with everything has too many variables for my soft head.
@tomas21 @Turbo1Ton @Ahultin
So I just had the heater bypass done on my Mastertemp 300. A pentair rep was on site and did the wiring of the actuator and programming with intellicenter. He wired it into the heater as others here have tried. However, I too seem to be having issues with this bypass. My issues seem to be that it doesn't ever take the heater off bypass. And if it does, the water left in the heater is heated up much higher than what the pool water is (95+ degrees) and so when a new request for heat comes it won't ever turn on the heater nor take the heater off bypass because the heater thinks it isn't needed as it read 95+ and I'm asking for 85.
Do these sound like the same issues you all had with the bypass? It seems like the only time it goes on bypass is if I turn heat mode off, which I wouldn't do until summer temps are enough to heat the pool.
Update. I may still redo the diverter between the waterfall side and the filter side. It was put in much too close to the inlet of the pumps which will interrupt the laminar flow entering the pump. But at least it works.
Turbo1Ton
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This sounds different from the issues I had with it. Unless I'm misunderstanding the terminology being used.
On bypass - water is bypassing the heater and no call for heat
Off bypass - bypass loop is blocked with the valve and all water is going through the heater
Mine would get a call for heat, go off bypass, sending all water through heater. When the call for heat would go away, the heater would enter a cooldown mode (1 minute, preset), and after this cooldown, the heater is supposed to set the valve back to on bypass, sending the water through the bypass loop. The heater controls never exit this cooldown mode. You can see it on the display of the heater, constantly flashing COOLDOWN at the bottom of the display.
I think you are saying that yours turns the bypass back on when the call for heat goes away, but then won't re-engage because it thinks it has met the temperature demand?
I thought the call for heat came from the automation water temp sensor, not the internal heater temp, but I may be mistaken here.
How is your valve set up, is it all through the bypass or all through the heater? If so, try configuring the valve so that it sends 50/50 or 60/40 through the bypass and heater when there is no call for heat (on bypass), and see if this corrects the situation.
--Jeff
Ahultin
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Sounds like it could be the same issue but with the intellivalve flipped which is resolved by holding two buttons simultaneously (can't remember the two but it's on the valve)
I don't beleive anyone has gotten the bypass to successfully close after heat is called for when hooked directly to the heater .
As a just in case , the heater is on the rs485 buss correct, not just hooked to the fireman's switch?
Ahultin
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I did some more testing and indeed the heater never exits the cooldown mode and never goes back to being on bypass. If I manually actuate the valve to bypass and then later there is a call for more heat, I think this is the scenario where it never actuates back to be off-bypass and the heater itself shows it has a request of say 80 degrees but thinks the water inside it is like 100 degrees.
When it is in this perpetual cooldown mode, there is nothing I can do to put it back in bypass unless I manually actuate the valve. I've tried turning off the heat mode in the intellicenter, cycling the pool/filter pump on/off. Nothing.
It sounds like I have the same issue as everyone else. I'm going to have to move this actuator to the intellicenter itself which is what I wanted to do in the first place but the pentair rep was here and just did it this way. I didn't make them re-do it because I wanted to at least give him a chance.
Yep, it is now on the rs485 bus now. The heater display shows it is in rs485 control mode.
It does work, but it is still not the flow we wanted. But the water fall still looks nice. It's just when you spend this kind of money on a water feature you want it to be right.
There is now a 3" tee about 2 feet underground where the two 2" drain come together. That 3" is then fed to the waterfall pump (intelliflo xf vsf) and connected with the 2.5" union. On the discharge side, the 2.5" union is connected to the 3" pipe and I have a flow meter on it.
So my target was 210 GPM. Here is the current performance as measure by that flow meter. Based on documented performance curves, this leads me to believe we are at approximately 55 feet of total dynamic head. I am unsure if I am just getting the drop off flow at that head when I hit right around 3100+ RPM, or if I am hitting the limit of what my supply and/or head will allow.
RPM FLOW
3450 170
3200 170
3100 165
3000 160
2800 140
2600 125
2400 120
2200 107
2000 95
The Whisperflo XF VS 5HP commercial pump is more or less a drop in replacement (wouldn't require re-plumbing as far as I can tell from the measurements) and it can provide a little better flow rate at these upper speeds. But the pool company I was working with wants $4600 for the pump (1 in stock) and another $250 install and I need my own electrician on top of it. That was ridiculous to me and a huge markup on the pump. My original PB quoted me like $3200 but stated to order the pump is a 16 week lead time. So that isn't an option at least not until maybe this off season.
So I think we may be standing on what we have for now lest the costs start to get out of control.
Ahultin
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I want to be surprised that the pentair rep didnt bother to test the configuration, but I'm not. If you have room for the additional actuator in the intellicenter, that will work. I had to buy a valve expansion card to make it work but ultimately the energy use on bypass is so significantly lower it is worth it.
tomas21
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My heater is still wired via RS485 to the IC and the intellivalve is wired to the MT400. When spa mode is activated with heat... heater turns on, heater lcd turns on, and intellivalve turns on... I can hear it clicking away to get the valve to the Off Bypass mode so it blocks the water from going out the bypass and starts send 100% of the water through the heater.... when we are done and turn off the spa the heater I believe still clicks the intelli valve back to my settings to put Bypass mode on... i cam'd it so a little water still flows through the heater but most goes through the bypass to not leave stuff stagnant in the heater. I will try to validate again via my flometer to see because normally when the bypass is on and not going through heater my flo is obviously a littler higher....
Will be interesting if Pentair ever resolves cooldown behavior since i don't think it fully works and our ability to control the cam's completely on the intellivalves via the currently unused RS485 wires on them.
Turbo1Ton
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Please advise if this is the case, as this was not the case when I had the valve connected directly to the MT, and appears to be the same with the OP and @Ahultin, It would not return the Intellivalve to the bypass position. It kept it in the heater on position.
--Jeff
Ahultin
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That is correct, mine would activate while connected to the mastetemp valve header but would not return after cooldown to bypass. I was thinking(hoping really lol ) that @tomas21 had the purported newer firmware mt400 but looking back in their history , it looks like they installed thier mastertemp several months before mine.
tomas21
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I will be conducting the testing tonight so i can see the LED on the intelliValve clearly... and montioring flometer when going from different modes.
tomas21
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Testing results
Baseline reading:
Pool mode - 62gpm @ 3000rpm
Spa mode (no heat) - 59gpm @3000rpm
Reading (heat engaged)
Spa mode (heat engaged) - intellivalve wired to heater that is under RS485 control clicks to turn off the bypass and send all water through the heater
49-50gpm @3000 rpm
Spa mode (heat engaged) - Turned off spa mode and put pool in pool mode
The led went off on the intellivalve but you can still hear it clicking as it is trying to get back to turning on bypass in my home position
Pool mode reading
55gpm @3000rpm --- leads me to believe the intellivalve didn't get all the way to bypass at its home position to send most water straight to pool since flow is not at original baseline
Pressed Heater LCD and it heater lcd said .... heater off & heater cool down flashing
... Behavior observed...
Eventually my pool mode which has various schedules... it eventually turned off due to schedule (so the primary pump turns off which is the heater is wired to load as safety precaution... no pump power then no heater power)
Pressed Heater LCD no longer available since no power
When the next pool schedule came on i saw the heater LCD get power and one of the screens said version 1.0.0 and I also saw and heard the intellivalve clicking back to its home setting putting the bypass back on to my home location.
Conclusion: So it seems like intellivalve wired to heater for the bypass feature.... it will only return to your bypass setting after a power cycle to the heater that has been wired with the RS485... i will continue to watch but this is the behavior I have seen so far
Baseline reading:
Pool mode - 62gpm @ 3000rpm
Spa mode (no heat) - 59gpm @3000rpm
Reading (heat engaged)
Spa mode (heat engaged) - intellivalve wired to heater that is under RS485 control clicks to turn off the bypass and send all water through the heater
49-50gpm @3000 rpm
Spa mode (heat engaged) - Turned off spa mode and put pool in pool mode
The led went off on the intellivalve but you can still hear it clicking as it is trying to get back to turning on bypass in my home position
Pool mode reading
55gpm @3000rpm --- leads me to believe the intellivalve didn't get all the way to bypass at its home position to send most water straight to pool since flow is not at original baseline
Pressed Heater LCD and it heater lcd said .... heater off & heater cool down flashing
... Behavior observed...
Eventually my pool mode which has various schedules... it eventually turned off due to schedule (so the primary pump turns off which is the heater is wired to load as safety precaution... no pump power then no heater power)
Pressed Heater LCD no longer available since no power
When the next pool schedule came on i saw the heater LCD get power and one of the screens said version 1.0.0 and I also saw and heard the intellivalve clicking back to its home setting putting the bypass back on to my home location.
Conclusion: So it seems like intellivalve wired to heater for the bypass feature.... it will only return to your bypass setting after a power cycle to the heater that has been wired with the RS485... i will continue to watch but this is the behavior I have seen so far
Turbo1Ton
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Very good. This is as expected. If the heater bypass worked as intended, then you would need to leave power applied to the heater for at least several minutes for the bypass to return to its home position.
Your operation appears to be the same as the rest of us, when the valve is connected directly to the heater board.
I believe Pentair's intention is to have power always applied to the heater, so that all comms remain active. This would mirror the operation of the pumps and any other RS485 communicating equipment.
--Jeff
This seems consistent with my setup as well. It only goes to bypass after a power cycle...which never happens unless I intervene as I run my pump 24x7. Even if I didn't, the desired state would be on bypass unless it is specifically called for heat. So regardless once heat goes off it stays off bypass essentially forever unless I power off the heater (even heat mode off does not really do this, would require me to cut the breaker or shut off pump...though I'm not even certain when my pump is off it guarantees heater is off though they share a breaker).
I just verified that the only way mine goes back to bypass is if I cycle the breaker off and back on.
With the breaker on and the pump off, the heater remains in "off" mode and will stay in that cooldown mode.
Once I flip the breaker when it powers on it shows version 1.00 and the intellivalve goes back to bypass and the heater shows "off" and not in cooldown any longer.
I also do not have ANY flow going to my heater when in bypass. I've been advised this is not good for the heater. Can someone explain to me the repercussions of this? I understand at least that deposits can be left behind as water left in the heater evaporates. Any other reasons?
I also can't really determine a setting on the intellivalve that puts some decent flow through the heater when on bypass. When I am on "12", I am on bypass. When on "24" full flow is going through the heater. When I manually actuate the valve to try and see what setting I could do for bypass with flow to heater, at around 19 or 20 I can barely see the flap of the check valve being moved but it is kind of noisy with the trickle going through the heater. But 18 the flap is completely closed and 21 it is full open. So it is hard to tell how much flow I'm really getting through the heater. It seems a very very small window between full open flow and basically no flow. Any advice?
With the breaker on and the pump off, the heater remains in "off" mode and will stay in that cooldown mode.
Once I flip the breaker when it powers on it shows version 1.00 and the intellivalve goes back to bypass and the heater shows "off" and not in cooldown any longer.
I also do not have ANY flow going to my heater when in bypass. I've been advised this is not good for the heater. Can someone explain to me the repercussions of this? I understand at least that deposits can be left behind as water left in the heater evaporates. Any other reasons?
I also can't really determine a setting on the intellivalve that puts some decent flow through the heater when on bypass. When I am on "12", I am on bypass. When on "24" full flow is going through the heater. When I manually actuate the valve to try and see what setting I could do for bypass with flow to heater, at around 19 or 20 I can barely see the flap of the check valve being moved but it is kind of noisy with the trickle going through the heater. But 18 the flap is completely closed and 21 it is full open. So it is hard to tell how much flow I'm really getting through the heater. It seems a very very small window between full open flow and basically no flow. Any advice?