Equipment for New Build

[ajw22]

Oh interesting. So it's possible they didn't plumb the pool for a dedicated pump. I have pictures of the piping before shotcrete was done so what would I look for to know if there was a dedicated suction line?

Look for suction intakes on the pool floor or walls.

If you had an unused suction intake there would be a pipe at the equipment pad that is not connected and I don’t see such a pipe in your picture.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Look for suction intakes on the pool floor or walls.

If you had an unused suction intake there would be a pipe at the equipment pad that is not connected and I don’t see such a pipe in your picture.

Well if that's the case then I guess it makes the decision easier. Here is a picture of the pool prior to plaster. I honestly don't know what all of the pipes are for. This is our first pool and I'm still trying to learn as much as I can from this site.

 

[ajw22]

You cannot tell from pipes sticking out if their use is for suction or return.

 

[ajw22]

Your builder decided on the design change of dropping the scupper pump back when the pool plumbing was being roughed in.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

You cannot tell from pipes sticking out if their use is for suction or return.

Okay so assuming there is no dedicated suction line it sounds like the separate pump is a no-go and we will be asking for a refund from the builder. Do you have any concerns with the main pump (IntelliFlo3 VSF 3HP) being able to support everything?

 

[ajw22]

Depends on your expectations for flow rates. You will have to see what pump speeds and valve positions work best for you.

You may find you get better flow from the scuppers with only two on then dividing the flow by three.

You may find yourself adjusting valve positions more then you expected.

Those ball valves on the scupper lines should have been diverter valves. In 3 years or so they will start sticking, handles will break, and they will need replacement.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Depends on your expectations for flow rates. You will have to see what pump speeds and valve positions work best for you.

You may find you get better flow from the scuppers with only two on then dividing the flow by three.

You may find yourself adjusting valve positions more then you expected.

Those ball valves on the scupper lines should have been diverter valves. In 3 years or so they will start sticking, handles will break, and they will need replacement.

Oh great, I didn't even consider the valves. Yet another thing to worry about and discuss with the builder. One thing is for sure, I will never build another pool.

 

[ajw22]

Nah, you will learn what to specify on your next pool.

You would rather build it then inherit someone else’s poor decisions.

 

[pjt]

Your system will work great as is. Why do you think you need a separate feature pump?

Did they install a heater bypass?

If they're replumbing anything, have them replace the ball valves with diverters. See post #3.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Your system will work great as is. Why do you think you need a separate feature pump?

Did they install a heater bypass?

If they're replumbing anything, have them replace the ball valves with diverters. See post #3.

What’s funny is that it was the builders who recommended the separate pump. Every builder we got a quote from had it designed that way including the one we selected.

No I don’t see a heater bypass but I may have forgotten to ask for one. I am going to ask to have those ball valves replaced. At this point they should be willing to do what it takes to make this right since they changed the design and didn’t tell us. I’m not happy at all.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

I do wonder how they will replace those ball valves given how tight all the fittings are right there. I complete missed your recommendation in post #3. There is so much to keep up with on a pool build. Never again.

 

[ajw22]

I do wonder how they will replace those ball valves given how tight all the fittings are right there.

The entire manifold with the 4 pipes going into the ground needs to be rebuilt.

Cut the four pipes going into the ground and at the 3-way diverter. Rebuild from the 3-way diverter. 2 to 3 hours of work for a plumber and the cost of 4 diverters.

They gave you diverter valves on the pipes on the return side and cheaped out on the scupper pipes.

 

[pjt]

What’s funny is that it was the builders who recommended the separate pump. Every builder we got a quote from had it designed that way including the one we selected.

Unless you have unique circumstances, you don't need a dedicated pump for your water features. My setup is almost the same as yours and it works great. Save money and space at your equipment pad while reducing complexity.

No I don’t see a heater bypass but I may have forgotten to ask for one. I am going to ask to have those ball valves replaced.

Have the plumber install a bypass when he replaces the ball valves with diverters.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Unless you have unique circumstances, you don't need a dedicated pump for your water features. My setup is almost the same as yours and it works great. Save money and space at your equipment pad while reducing complexity.

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Have the plumber install a bypass when he replaces the ball valves with diverters.

Thank you. That makes me feel a little better about their screw up and not having the second pump.

I’ll need to figure out how to approach the bypass and valves. I forgot to specify those in the original contract, but they also screwed up by not giving us the second pump. I guess it’s not the end of the world if we don’t have the bypass or have the valves replaced but can’t hurt to ask. I’m just ready to get this project closer to done. Original estimated timeline had the entire project done by end of February. Here we are middle of April and just now getting equipment installed. Still have to get final inspection from the county.

 

[ajw22]

Have the plumber install a bypass when he replaces the ball valves with diverters.

@pjt a few questions about the actuator you have on your heater bypass valve. I will ask it here since @DSMinAtlanta may be interested in the discussion.

In the pic the handle indicated both lines are open - bypass and heater intake. Any reason?

I finally got a bypass valve I can put an actuator on.

Do you have the actuator connected to the IntelliCenter or the MasterTemp PCB BYP_VLV socket?

Is the automatic bypass working for you?

 

[pjt]

In the pic the handle indicated both lines are open - bypass and heater intake. Any reason?

This is the "no heat" configuration. A trickle of water flows through the HP and the bypass is fully open. When I'm using the HP, the bypass is completely off.

Do you have the actuator connected to the IntelliCenter or the MasterTemp PCB BYP_VLV socket?

The actuator is connected to IntelliCenter. I have an AquaCal HP, and it doesn't play nice with IntelliCenter. I've called both Pentair and AquaCal, and they both said the RS-485 problems should get fixed with future firmware updates. I'm not holding my breath. In the meantime, I've disconnected the HP RS-485 cable and I'm operating the HP standalone.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

Update: Now that we have been able to do some testing with the single pump there is clearly enough power to support both the pool and the water features so that makes me feel better. I'm glad I listened to you all on getting the 3hp pump although I just realized I forgot to specify the touch screen model. Oh well, at least the app interface works really well so far. I'm waiting to get the dollar amount for the credit on the second pump. I did ask about the Pentair heater bypass (part 462048) and they have quoted $1,000 to add that to our setup. Is it really worth $1,000 to add this bypass?

 

[ajw22]

That $1,000 include all parts - actuator, diverter, check valve, PVC? That is $500 - 600 in parts. Include connection and setup in your IntelliCenter? Maybe 2 hours of labor.

Put it in. It will make a big difference every day in the speeds you can run your pump and lower your electric cost.

 

[mas985]

The Master Temp 400 has an internal bypass:



This is much better than heaters without a bypass such as most heat pumps but not as good as an external bypass.

To give you an idea of performance difference in a similar setup to yours, with the heater in-line and the pump at full speed, the operating point would be around:

107 GPM @ 69' of head & 2412 Watts

With the heater externally bypassed:

124 GPM @ 62' of head & 2613 watts

If you reduced the RPM (2975) of the external bypass scenario such that the flow rate is the same as without an external bypass, the operating point becomes:

107 GPM @ 46' of head & 1719 Watts

So you can either get more flow rate or fewer watts or a combination of both with the bypass.

Savings are much less at lower RPM.

But the other reason to have a bypass is so you can isolate the heater should you even need to a harsh chemical treatment of the water and/or maintenance on the heater.

 

[DSMinAtlanta]

That $1,000 include all parts - actuator, diverter, check valve, PVC? That is $500 - 600 in parts. Include connection and setup in your IntelliCenter? Maybe 2 hours of labor.

Put it in. It will make a big difference every day in the speeds you can run your pump and lower your electric cost.

Thanks for the prompt reply. All they said is $1,000 via text message. I assume that includes everything. I also heard back on the pump credit and it's $1,372 so that would more than cover the cost of the bypass. I just hope that there is enough room on the equipment pad to support the bypass setup as it seems a little cramped already.