OK. Last evening I investigated a little more and I’m still stumped. I did find another return on the opposite corner of the pool that was hidden by the winter cover that I had not yet fully removed because it was weighed down by water that I had not pumped out yet. Once I did that and removed it I found the plugged return. I removed the plug and it started jetting water. But the mystery port on the left in the photo above is still a mystery. Regardless of which way I turn the jandy valve nothing happens at that port, no suction nor jetting. I even tried capping off the skimmer but that had no effect other than starve the pump of water because of the next thing I realized: The main drain is capped off (for winterizing I assume?) yet when I turn the valve from both main drain and skimmer open to only skimmer open the flow through the skimmer increases yet with main drain capped it seems to me it should make no difference to the skimmer flow volume if I close off that line or not, yet is seems to. It’s a puzzle for sure! Doing my best to explain my situation. Hope it makes sense.
Dont know what I'm looking at
- Thread starter Ponduke
- Start date
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,403
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Can you take a picture of your skimmer, with the basket removed and the pump off (so the water is still)?
Can you see the skimmer port?
Is there more than one port at the bottom of your skimmer?
How did you determine that your main drain is capped off? Where and how is that being done?
If the mystery port is a suction port, it's supposed to have a safety cover. Is there any sort of spring-loaded flap on it?
Main drains and vacuum suction ports can be dangerous: entrapment or worse. It's possible the previous owner defeated both (hence the main drain cap) just for safety sake, and left the skimmer port as the only intake.
Can you see the skimmer port?
Is there more than one port at the bottom of your skimmer?
How did you determine that your main drain is capped off? Where and how is that being done?
If the mystery port is a suction port, it's supposed to have a safety cover. Is there any sort of spring-loaded flap on it?
Main drains and vacuum suction ports can be dangerous: entrapment or worse. It's possible the previous owner defeated both (hence the main drain cap) just for safety sake, and left the skimmer port as the only intake.
No pic of skimmer (can take one this evening) but I do know there is only one port at bottom of skimmer. I can see the main drain at bottom of pool and it looks like there is a white cap on it with no slots, thus I assumed it was a cap of some sort for winterizing. Mystery port has no spring loaded cap. It basically looks identical to the two return ports. One note: the home I bought was a flipped home and the renovators put a brand new liner in the pool as part of the renovation. The two working return ports were plugged with threaded plugs but the mystery port, had not even had the vinyl liner cut out within the circular ring. I’m the one that cut the circle in the liner within the ring assuming it was a return.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,403
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
Hmmm, I'll muddle through with you until someone more in-the-know comes along. The vinyl in the mystery port could indicate the liner installers were told that plumbing had been abandoned, or they might have just forgotten to do what you did. So that doesn't really tell us anything.
I don't know how to winterize a pool, so I wouldn't know if you're supposed to cap off a main drain or not. I've never heard of that, nor read about someone having to dive down into a pool each winter to swap a drain cover for a cap. Some drain covers have their openings around the perimeter, somewhat obscured, and have no slots on the top. Is it possible you're looking at something like this:
And while unlikely, I suppose you could be looking at a diverter plate under the skimmer basket, which might have a single hole in it, but actually be covering the two ports underneath it, the suction port, and the main drain port. So that's the first and easiest thing to check.
If you can find two ports in the skimmer, that usually means one to the pump, one to the drain.
If there's only one, and there is no diverter plate, then that leads to the 3-way valve, and would imply that the main drain is plumbed to the pad, to the 3-way.
With two pipes coming out of the ground into that 3-way Jandy just in front of the pump, that's likely either balancing the suction between drain and skimmer, or vacuum port and skimmer. It'd likely be the former if you have only one port in the skimmer, and the latter if there are two ports in the skimmer.
With me so far?
There are quite a few possible scenarios, but before we explore all those, you need to know for sure the number of ports in your skimmer, and whether the drain is capped off or not. As I said, you could be looking at a pool that was intentionally made safer by capping off both drain and suction port. Or either could have been capped off or abandoned because of a leak in one or both. Or maybe the suction port got hopelessly clogged and was abandoned. Maybe the drain did plumb to the skimmer, but the skimmer was replaced and the drain line abandoned at the skimmer and capped off at the drain. Lot's of possibilities.
No way to contact the previous owner, through the realtor, maybe, and ask a few questions?
Anyway, first things first: confirm number of ports in skimmer, confirm drain is capped, and not just covered.
The good news: you have a working skimmer and two working returns, and that's all you need. So you don't have to even bother with the rest if you don't want to. (Except to plug up the mystery port again and render it 100% safe.)
I don't know how to winterize a pool, so I wouldn't know if you're supposed to cap off a main drain or not. I've never heard of that, nor read about someone having to dive down into a pool each winter to swap a drain cover for a cap. Some drain covers have their openings around the perimeter, somewhat obscured, and have no slots on the top. Is it possible you're looking at something like this:
And while unlikely, I suppose you could be looking at a diverter plate under the skimmer basket, which might have a single hole in it, but actually be covering the two ports underneath it, the suction port, and the main drain port. So that's the first and easiest thing to check.
If you can find two ports in the skimmer, that usually means one to the pump, one to the drain.
If there's only one, and there is no diverter plate, then that leads to the 3-way valve, and would imply that the main drain is plumbed to the pad, to the 3-way.
With two pipes coming out of the ground into that 3-way Jandy just in front of the pump, that's likely either balancing the suction between drain and skimmer, or vacuum port and skimmer. It'd likely be the former if you have only one port in the skimmer, and the latter if there are two ports in the skimmer.
With me so far?
There are quite a few possible scenarios, but before we explore all those, you need to know for sure the number of ports in your skimmer, and whether the drain is capped off or not. As I said, you could be looking at a pool that was intentionally made safer by capping off both drain and suction port. Or either could have been capped off or abandoned because of a leak in one or both. Or maybe the suction port got hopelessly clogged and was abandoned. Maybe the drain did plumb to the skimmer, but the skimmer was replaced and the drain line abandoned at the skimmer and capped off at the drain. Lot's of possibilities.
No way to contact the previous owner, through the realtor, maybe, and ask a few questions?
Anyway, first things first: confirm number of ports in skimmer, confirm drain is capped, and not just covered.
The good news: you have a working skimmer and two working returns, and that's all you need. So you don't have to even bother with the rest if you don't want to. (Except to plug up the mystery port again and render it 100% safe.)
Thank you for the such a detailed reply. You've given me some direction and some things to look for this evening when I get home. I'll see what I can find and report back tomorrow. Thanks again!
And after further review, for anyone still following this thread, I have figured out the following: The main drain is not capped, but is slotted like the one shown above. The skimmer has one port, and the mystery port is an abandoned suction port that I have now capped. The 3 way valve does indeed switch between skimmer and main drain. I now have a good grasp of the pools plumbing. Now I just have to figure out the pool light. The light’s open housing was sitting on bottom of pool when I removed the cover, the lens was sitting on diving board, the gasket and outer ring was in the garage, and I have no clue where the switch for it is, so I’m guessing some money will need to be spent for that issue, just no clue how much and where it will be going.
Great... you are making good progress and learning your pools set up. Awesome stuff. That light... wow sounds like it was not working and prev owner was going to repair/replace and it just got left behind. Great opportunity to throw in a new LED set up and really set your pool off.
Keep posting updates, we will follow as long as you need us.
Keep posting updates, we will follow as long as you need us.
- Apr 10, 2018
- 6,240
- Pool Size
- 18375
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool RJ-45 Plus
Still following. I'm glad you figured out your plumbing set-up. Now the search for the light switch.
Good luck!
Good luck!
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,403
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
There you go, nice work.
Finding the switch... Are you handy with electrical? Wiring a plug or switch? Or none of the above?
I hesitate to give step-by-step instructions to a stranger over the internet about how to electrocute themselves, so in general terms: FIRST, to be safest, turn off all your house's breakers and then get the housing out of the water. That could be pretty dangerous otherwise. Then open the pool light junction box and disconnect the existing light's wires. DO NOT PULL THE LIGHT OUT OF THE NICHE. You'll need the existing wires to pull the new light's wires through the conduit. Just make sure the light is both disconnected and out of the water. Connect to the revealed wiring either a voltmeter (if you have a helper) or a lightbulb (if you don't) and then go back to the house and start flipping switches to see what happens. Start with turning the breakers back on, one by one. See if you get any volts to the the junction box wiring. Then start flipping switches in the house. Please don't attempt this sort of thing if you're not 100% comfortable with it and 100% sure about what you're doing. You'll be messing with 120 volts and water and/or wet/damp soil and who knows what else.
Some clues. See the color of the two PVC conduits running into the pool light junction box? Go back to the house and walk along its perimeter. See if you see any similar conduit coming out of the ground and then running into the wall or a switch box or a sub panel. If it runs into the wall, search the wall inside and out for the switch. Sometimes the switch will be in a junction box right near the ground. Look for a timer box somewhere on the back wall, or in the garage. The light may have been setup on a timer. Have you found the breaker that protects the pump? Is it in a sub panel somewhere, near the house's main breaker panel perhaps? Is there more than one breaker in the sub panel? One of those breakers may be for the light, and that might be the only switch. Not a great setup for the homeowner, but it could have been wired that way.
See if any of those ideas help... Or hire an electrician if you're not 100% comfortable about this wild-goose-chase.
Thank you for this detailed reply. Sorry about just now responding as I hadn't been on this thread since my last post and for some reason didn't get/notice the email notification that you'd replied. I am working on the electrical issue now before I install my new Pentaire variable speed pump. I am fairly handy with basic electrical, and extremely careful when working around it. I 100% check and double check a circuit is not charged before working on it with a tester.
I think I've found the light circuit, but I'm not happy about the whole electrical situation. Whoever installed it was not an electrician I am guessing. The pump GFCI breaker is not installed in subpanel correctly so it's not even providing GFCI protection. The pool light circuit isn't even wired up and the breaker is gone. And in the house main panel I can’t even figure out which breaker powers the outside subpanel or the amperage. See pics.
So now I’m not sure what I’m going to do. The subpanel box is old and there is some rust and the front plate (its removed in attached pictures) has a too large opening which exposes more than just the breaker face. I guess I’ll replace the whole thing but I need to know the amperage first. Judging by the wires supplying power to it, and the lack of an obvious breaker for it on the main panel in the house it might just be 20 amp. I’m going to investigate more, any advice is obviously welcome. If it gets to be too much of a headache I’ll hire an electrician but I’d like to think I can figure this all out.
I think I've found the light circuit, but I'm not happy about the whole electrical situation. Whoever installed it was not an electrician I am guessing. The pump GFCI breaker is not installed in subpanel correctly so it's not even providing GFCI protection. The pool light circuit isn't even wired up and the breaker is gone. And in the house main panel I can’t even figure out which breaker powers the outside subpanel or the amperage. See pics.
So now I’m not sure what I’m going to do. The subpanel box is old and there is some rust and the front plate (its removed in attached pictures) has a too large opening which exposes more than just the breaker face. I guess I’ll replace the whole thing but I need to know the amperage first. Judging by the wires supplying power to it, and the lack of an obvious breaker for it on the main panel in the house it might just be 20 amp. I’m going to investigate more, any advice is obviously welcome. If it gets to be too much of a headache I’ll hire an electrician but I’d like to think I can figure this all out.
Attachments
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,403
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40
I'd be tempted to take on a job like that myself, at my own house, at my own risk. But I don't think it wise for me to give, or for you to receive, instructions on wiring of that nature and extent over the internet. So, sorry, I'm out. I think a qualified electrician is the way to go. It's how I ended up having all my new gear connected. I used a licensed pool contractor so that I could get the full warranty on my new Pentair gear. I ended up getting the full three-year warranty. And while purchasing and installing Pentair gear through a certified installer is expensive, I felt it justified. You might look for one that can do both your pump and the box.
I will offer you this, however. I've been inside a fair amount of breaker boxes. That's about as bad as I've seen. Wire nuts? Loose wires? Cut wires? Missing conduit hole plugs? And let's sprinkle in a bit of combustible material, just to top it all off! Yikes.
My bigger concern, and sorry to dump this on you: based on what I'm looking at (is that a white wire connected to the one breaker in that box?!?), this work was done by someone that had no knowledge of what he was doing, and/or blatantly chose to ignore industry standard conventions (let alone building codes). So I'd be less concerned about what you're looking at, and more concerned about what you can't see. Whoever did that work is the kind of guy that would think nothing of splicing wires in the walls, or in the middle of a conduit run, and who would know nothing about, or plain ignore, the proper way of safely wiring pool gear, etc. Point is, if it were me, the more I could rip out what that person did, the safer I'd feel. I'd question everything, try to examine everything and check, if not replace, all that I could.
Is it energized? Do you get a reading of any voltage anywhere? If not, leave it alone. If so, go back to the main and start cycling each of the breakers until you find the one that powers that sub panel, and then turn it off...
Good luck. Be careful.
I will offer you this, however. I've been inside a fair amount of breaker boxes. That's about as bad as I've seen. Wire nuts? Loose wires? Cut wires? Missing conduit hole plugs? And let's sprinkle in a bit of combustible material, just to top it all off! Yikes.
My bigger concern, and sorry to dump this on you: based on what I'm looking at (is that a white wire connected to the one breaker in that box?!?), this work was done by someone that had no knowledge of what he was doing, and/or blatantly chose to ignore industry standard conventions (let alone building codes). So I'd be less concerned about what you're looking at, and more concerned about what you can't see. Whoever did that work is the kind of guy that would think nothing of splicing wires in the walls, or in the middle of a conduit run, and who would know nothing about, or plain ignore, the proper way of safely wiring pool gear, etc. Point is, if it were me, the more I could rip out what that person did, the safer I'd feel. I'd question everything, try to examine everything and check, if not replace, all that I could.
Is it energized? Do you get a reading of any voltage anywhere? If not, leave it alone. If so, go back to the main and start cycling each of the breakers until you find the one that powers that sub panel, and then turn it off...
Good luck. Be careful.
Yeah, it is a mess for sure. I’m certain I could DIY this situation but I’ve decided to pick my battles and I believe I’ll pass this one on the a licensed electrician. Sent pics of the box to the guy I hired to wire my former home and he said he’d take on the job so that’s that.
- Nov 12, 2017
- 12,403
- Pool Size
- 12300
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-40