Does the pump size sound appropriate?

[earnheart]

We're about to sign a contract to build a new pool. It is about 11,500 gallons. It will have a hot tub and a PCC2000 in-floor cleaner, 3 sheer waterfalls, and 3 bubblers.

The depth goes from about 3ft down to 5ft at the opposite end.

We're quoted a hayward tristar 2hp pump, a 1.5 HP spa blower, and a 1 HP booster pump. 2 skimmers, 4 returns, 2.5" suction lines and 2" returns, Hayward 525 cartridge filter, an SWG, and a 500,000 BTU NG heater.

I'm ignorant to pools - does the pump HP sound appropriate? I assume it is variable speed but will find out later.

 

[Jimrahbe]

e,

Can I ask why you want to use 1970's technology to clean your pool? Was the in-floor system your idea or your pool builders? I suggest you search this site for in-floor system reviews.

What is the booster pump for? Generally, they are for pressure-side cleaners (1960's technology) but not normal when you have an in-floor system... Is it for something else?

No matter what, you need a Variable Speed pump if going with a SWCG (which I love..) I also like the large filter, as the bigger the filter the less often they need to be cleaned.

The whole point of having a VS pump is so you can run at a low RPM to save on the electrical bill.. But with an in-floor system and 3 waterfalls you will have to run at almost full RPM.

I am not a Hayward guy, but I would think that 2 HP is not enough, but I also "think" the Tristar is a 3 HP VS pump.. (Talk with your pool builder and make sure... )

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[HeyEng]

Jim has already pointed out some stuff that is very relevant...but I will throw out one additional thing. The pump they are trying to sell you (just the 2HP) will burn at least 2 KwH of power for EVERY HOUR it is run. It may not seem like a whole lot, but do the math on your electricity rates and you might want to re-think the configuration.

 

[earnheart]

Thank you both. We requested the in-floor system after talking to several friends that built pools within the last few years. One has an in-floor and loves it, the other doesn't and wishes he'd added it. Our pool is 32x10 (narrow), and we didn't want to mess w/dodging a robot.

 

[Arizonarob]

Earnheart, as Jim has mentioned, I would strongly suggest you rethink that IFC system. There are people that love them, until they fail. The more holes you put in the shell of your pool, the more areas where something can fail.

Your pool is only 500 gallons more then mine, and a robot will not only clean it better then an IFC system, but it will cost you less to operate. Just toss him in a night, and pull him out in the morning. Nothing to dodge.

 

[Jimrahbe]

E,

While I admit I an not a fan of in-floor systems, I was really trying to make sure it was your idea, and not your pool builders..

While I think it is a mistake... as always it is your pool and your rules.

Thanks for the feedback,

Jim R.

 

[Fuldo]

My only experience with an in-floor system is with my daughter's pool that I care for as much as she does. From my perspective it's more a "sweeper" than a "cleaner", almost all debris still ends-up on the floor somewhere and must be removed by either robot or manual vacuuming. They have a robot but it's seldom used, it's just too quick and easy to vacuum once or twice a week and not be concerned about robot management. That said, vacuuming is much quicker with the sweepers, most debris ends-up in four or five concentrated areas.

Besides up-front cost there are two huge downsides to the floor systems; they greatly increase both operating expense and potential failure/maintenance issues. This is especially true where electricity rates are high. If it were me I'd go with a VSP running a large part of the day, possibly the entire day, and just manually vacuum once or twice a week depending on the pool's needs. Then again, everyone is different.

 

[jonpcar]

I’m one of those that really like my IFCS. I will never build another pool..but if I did, I’m not sure that I would get another...mostly because of the cost. IF I was going to get a new pool with an IFCS, I would make sure that it includes:

0) a powerful VSP...you need to tune your IFCS, the only easy way to do that is to adjust the RPM of the VSP, otherwise you will be throwing away money running a pump at high speed all the time...something everyone on this boards seems to dislike, including myself. Compared to the cost of a new pool, power usage for many is a secondary issue.

1) full automation including the ability to pull suction 100% from the drain when using the IFCS popups...must also include the ability to run with 100% suction through the skimmers and back through the wall returns (for low speed skimming and chlorine generation). You need to run your VSP at high speed for 2-3 hours for popup operation (inefficient), and then at low speed (not through the popups) for much longer times (almost free with a VSP).

2) a channel main drain to collect the debris pushed around by the IFCS

3) a leaf basket if you have trees or other debris shedders anywhere close...the pump basket is too small

4) a smaller pool...IFCSs are not for big pools...yours qualifies but I don’t know about the rectangular shape because small debris will probably collect in the corners.

5) I don’t have a spa so do not know about that...is the booster pump for that or the sheers/bubblers, not for the IFCS?

6) minimum 2” pipe returns to the IFCS popups, with a 2” IFCS manifold. The # of heads on each zone has changed dramatically over the the years...I think they are trying to get by with more heads on each zone which can be problematic...but I don’t think you will have much choice on that, the pool builders contract the design out to the IFCS manufacturers...make sure they follow the plan exactly.

7) Last summer I “discovered” the ability to swirl my pool with the wall returns to enhance skimming action. Thanks Rob! Don’t know if you will have that ability with a longer, narrower pool. It’s made a big difference: material is collected from the surface with the “cheap” skimming before it makes its way down to the “expensive” popups. Haha.

The pcc2000 is the only IFCS system I know of that claims to “direct” the debris towards the drain...it could work with your pool slope towards only one end...but I am still personally skeptical. My system, and most IFCSs, randomly push stuff around until its sucked down the drain. All that being said...I run my system for about $10/month so I’m happy with it. I haven’t brushed or vacuumed my pool since the final of last summer’s monsoon...I know, I’m lazy, but I have scooped out some floating debris a few times after some high winds.

Good luck with your decision.

 

[earnheart]

Thank you all for your replies. I'm a masochist so we're going for the IFC. A couple of weeks ago we were able to get the builder to come down to X for the pool, or X + Y for the pool with an IFC. We ultimately got them to include the IFC for the original X price.

If it ends up failing down the road it'll be an expensive lesson.

 

[setsailsoon]

Earnheart,

It's good that you are narrowing down your choices and thinking them through. I generally agree with Jim and Rob on recommendations. Given your decision on the IFC here's what else I'd suggest:

• Since you are decided on IFC (not what I'd do) make sure you have a suction side port. That way, in the future you'll have full flexibility to change to any other system in the future. This should be very low (or zero) cost to add if included in the pricing during your bidding phase.
• Do add full automation with a system that has several additional relays. Or at least a panel that will allow conversion to automation at a later date. A 60 amp sub-panel would be my minimum. I had to convert mine after the fact and it was a real pain. Having this at the installation would have cost very little extra.
• Get an 800 gal minimum spa. You can use this year-round even in Dallas. We love ours and use it extensively.
• Cartridge filter is the way to go. Size with at least 200 sq ft and larger is better. I have 200 and I could easily go a year between cleaning. I do have a full screen enclosure so you may need bigger. Whatever size you get make sure it will be large enough for max flow of your pump.
• Start with a salt water system included and convert to salt as soon as your builder gives you the OK or just have them start it up. We've had our pool 5 years and just now converted. I wish we had listened to the experts on here and converted at day 1.
• Order your TF100 when you sign the contract for the pool. Read Pool School several times. If there's anything you have questions about ask them up front.
• Test your pool frequently during the first couple of months. You'll learn a lot about your pool and every pool is a little different (this didn't make sense to me when Kimkats first recommended it, I thought "a pool is a pool")
• I'm trying borates next (this week I hope). So I'll let you know how that goes. You don't need to do anything now to add this later.
• The only thing you may want to do at the pool store is buy liquid chlorine and only if their price is better (in my case it is). If you go with a salt pool you won't need much liquid chlorine so this doesn't matter. Don't ask for advice from them. They are conflicted with the incentive to sell chemicals that don't help and cost way more money than you should spend. There are a few that are knowledgeable, problem is you don't know which you have until it's too late.
• If you have a spa and automation do away with the air switch and use an automation relay. Air switches are a pain in the **s after the first season.
• If you have LED lights (recommended) make sure they are the latest version that is sold on the manufacturers website. Technology for these has evolved a lot in recent years. Some stock of older lights available to installers. My first lights were Crud. They were warranted by the builder but my builder was great about this and upgraded all 3 lights when he realized the issue, not all builders are so great.
• Be sure to learn about the CYA/FC chart before you add any stabilizer or chlorine tablets.
• I learned about TFP method here and used it for the past 3 years after I took over my pool. Best thing I ever did! It has been simple to do and my pool has been fantastic every since. I did a LOT of upgrades and changes to my pool with superb advice here. Any time I had any questions I got a boatload of great advice very quickly. Upgrades I did myself were: Rewire sub panel to 60 amp, conversion from Intermatic timers to full WiFi automation with 12 channel system, suction side cleaner, salt system, modified spa control to automation, added solar heat (didn't do the install but contracted this myself), added NG heater.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

 

[earnheart]

Earnheart,

It's good that you are narrowing down your choices and thinking them through. I generally agree with Jim and Rob on recommendations. Given your decision on the IFC here's what else I'd suggest:

• Since you are decided on IFC (not what I'd do) make sure you have a suction side port. That way, in the future you'll have full flexibility to change to any other system in the future. This should be very low (or zero) cost to add if included in the pricing during your bidding phase.
• Do add full automation with a system that has several additional relays. Or at least a panel that will allow conversion to automation at a later date. A 60 amp sub-panel would be my minimum. I had to convert mine after the fact and it was a real pain. Having this at the installation would have cost very little extra.
• Get an 800 gal minimum spa. You can use this year-round even in Dallas. We love ours and use it extensively.
• Cartridge filter is the way to go. Size with at least 200 sq ft and larger is better. I have 200 and I could easily go a year between cleaning. I do have a full screen enclosure so you may need bigger. Whatever size you get make sure it will be large enough for max flow of your pump.
• Start with a salt water system included and convert to salt as soon as your builder gives you the OK or just have them start it up. We've had our pool 5 years and just now converted. I wish we had listened to the experts on here and converted at day 1.
• Order your TF100 when you sign the contract for the pool. Read Pool School several times. If there's anything you have questions about ask them up front.
• Test your pool frequently during the first couple of months. You'll learn a lot about your pool and every pool is a little different (this didn't make sense to me when Kimkats first recommended it, I thought "a pool is a pool")
• I'm trying borates next (this week I hope). So I'll let you know how that goes. You don't need to do anything now to add this later.
• The only thing you may want to do at the pool store is buy liquid chlorine and only if their price is better (in my case it is). If you go with a salt pool you won't need much liquid chlorine so this doesn't matter. Don't ask for advice from them. They are conflicted with the incentive to sell chemicals that don't help and cost way more money than you should spend. There are a few that are knowledgeable, problem is you don't know which you have until it's too late.
• If you have a spa and automation do away with the air switch and use an automation relay. Air switches are a pain in the **s after the first season.
• If you have LED lights (recommended) make sure they are the latest version that is sold on the manufacturers website. Technology for these has evolved a lot in recent years. Some stock of older lights available to installers. My first lights were Crud. They were warranted by the builder but my builder was great about this and upgraded all 3 lights when he realized the issue, not all builders are so great.
• Be sure to learn about the CYA/FC chart before you add any stabilizer or chlorine tablets.
• I learned about TFP method here and used it for the past 3 years after I took over my pool. Best thing I ever did! It has been simple to do and my pool has been fantastic every since. I did a LOT of upgrades and changes to my pool with superb advice here. Any time I had any questions I got a boatload of great advice very quickly. Upgrades I did myself were: Rewire sub panel to 60 amp, conversion from Intermatic timers to full WiFi automation with 12 channel system, suction side cleaner, salt system, modified spa control to automation, added solar heat (didn't do the install but contracted this myself), added NG heater.

I hope this is helpful.

Chris

Thanks for all the info Chris!

I did confirm we have a suction side port in the skimmer so I can always manually vacuum if necessary. We will have automation via the Hayward Omnilogic, for both the pool and 5x10 spa. Since we're building the pool simultaneously with the house, the home builder is putting a dedicated electrical line for the pool. I want to say he mentioned a dedicated 220, but this was several weeks ago and the most I know about electrical is changing switches and hanging fans. Additionally, we are starting w/salt and not chlorine. I think you meant to say "start with the included chlorine then switch to salt" ? We've also had the low-V team stub out several pairs of speaker lines and several CAT6 to the exterior corner of the home.

Since you're on salt now I'm interested to hear how the borates work out. We ultimately chose salt because it sounds like it is a little easier to maintain on a weekly basis, and a better chance of me not messing up the water therefore my wife doesn't complain about her skin.

Thanks again!

 

[PoolGate]

Are you sure that is a 500k BTU heater? That is gigantic the largest I have ever heard of. It will heat your comparatively small pool in a hurry. But I suspect it will require you to heavy up your gas meter. I'm also confused as why you are spec'd 3 pumps. I would for sure go with a variable speed for your main pump and probably a variable for the sheers and bubblers.

 

[earnheart]

Are you sure that is a 500k BTU heater? That is gigantic the largest I have ever heard of. It will heat your comparatively small pool in a hurry. But I suspect it will require you to heavy up your gas meter. I'm also confused as why you are spec'd 3 pumps. I would for sure go with a variable speed for your main pump and probably a variable for the sheers and bubblers.

I can't speak to the reason for the 500K heater. There are only 2 pumps - a variable 2hp main pump, then a 1hp booster for the sheers. I believe the spa blower will blow air for the spa and 2 bubblers (unless the bubblers are water and not air, in which case I assume the booster pump is getting them). I worded it poorly in my initial post because I was still learning the terminology. Specifically the 1.5 HP spa blower - I didn't realize this is a fan and not a pump.

 

[jonpcar]

Earnheart...since you are going to go with the IFCS, the items I mentioned are “kind of” in priority order. You have the VSP (0), make sure you have full automation control over the suction/return flows...in particular when you run with the IFCS, you want the ability to draw suction 100% from main drain to clean most effectively (1). Finally (2), I kick myself regularly for not installing a channel drain for the IFCS (I was quoted $500 when I did my pool resurfacing which I unfortunately turned down). Good luck.

 

[setsailsoon]

Thanks for all the info Chris!

I did confirm we have a suction side port in the skimmer so I can always manually vacuum if necessary. We will have automation via the Hayward Omnilogic, for both the pool and 5x10 spa. Since we're building the pool simultaneously with the house, the home builder is putting a dedicated electrical line for the pool. I want to say he mentioned a dedicated 220, but this was several weeks ago and the most I know about electrical is changing switches and hanging fans. Additionally, we are starting w/salt and not chlorine. I think you meant to say "start with the included chlorine then switch to salt" ? We've also had the low-V team stub out several pairs of speaker lines and several CAT6 to the exterior corner of the home.

Since you're on salt now I'm interested to hear how the borates work out. We ultimately chose salt because it sounds like it is a little easier to maintain on a weekly basis, and a better chance of me not messing up the water therefore my wife doesn't complain about her skin.

Thanks again!

Earnheart

Glad to help and sure looks like you're off to a great start. On the salt I was referring to the process of starting up the new pool. There are people on here much more knowledgeable than me, but the process builders use is they start the pool on fresh water to cure the plaster. Usually they do this for a month then start the salt system. Sorry, I should have been more clear about this. On the power, I'm sure he did mean 220 v, that's normal for in-ground pools. Another characteristic of power is amperage which measures the capacity. My recommendation for that is 60 amp service. If he's putting in 40 amp an upgrade to 60 amp should be very inexpensive if done before the contract is let. Even if you've signed the contract and it's very early in the project this should be cheap. Once the contractor starts to finalize design documents all changes are expensive.

Looks like my boric acid will be delivered today. So I'll be posting our progress on that soon. I've done a lot of projects on the pool and I wouldn't have attempted any without the help of experts on here. I didn't even know about salt or borates before I joined this site. So I'm a huge fan of this site! It's like I have a team of free, unbiased expert advisors every step of the way for any project or issue I'm trying to tackle. And there's no concern about the conflict of interest when somebody is also selling a product.

Please do keep us posted on your progress. Sounds like you're getting started with a superb new home and pool!

Chris

 

[earnheart]

Thank you all again for your help. I'll check on the various drainage items discussed, as well as the level of control I'll have for the pool automation. I'm excited to get started (heck I'm excited for my home foundation to be poured, which should be within a week). We're building our age-out home, i.e., 1 story, no stairs, plan to be here forever. We find ourselves more excited about hanging out in the pool/spa than the new home. Lots of Clark Griswold fantasies lately

 

[JRB100]

I'm in Dallas with an IFCS pool (21 years). I never got anything in writing about setting the valves for the skimmer in & out, etc and wish I had. When they come to orient you on the pool equipment, get something in writing about the settings. I have a love-hate relationship with my IFCS. There are many things I like, but it can be more than frustrating to get it working as designed at times.