Does it matter if the salt cell PCB panel is broken or do I just test my pool daily?

[outdoorsgal]

our Hayward salt cell panel is saying that that it is not chlorinating pool, check salt level, very low salt level. pool/panel is about 5 yrs old, we're on Cell #3, this time we bought "jacuzzi" brand from lowes to save a couple/few hundred $$ about 4 mths ago. Cell is clean and FC seems pretty steady so it seems to be creating chlorine. I called the pool company and they said they'd come out and put in another salt cell to see if this stopped the reading and if not I'd prob need a new PCB panel. It would cost $1k plus labor. I looked up "hayward PCB panel" on amazon just to get a ball park and depending on model, seems to run between $250-$500 but they also have a $100 display. My husband has been doing more of the pool care lately and from what I know, I believe that this is the first time there is a check salt cell message since we've had the jucuzzi brank cell (so I'd think the panel can read the brand). I have plenty of salt in pool, even the max amount of 3400 as I asked hubby to pour in 1/2 bag once and he poured in the whole bag.

What it seems to me is, if the cell is producing chlorine, the only problem with the error message is that we wouldn't know if the cell has calcium in it to know to change it, but if we tested our water daily it wouldn't matter. If we checked the cell once a mth, even better. Or, am I missing something?

Other question is if we wanted to try to fix the reading ourselves, how much know how does it take to start changing out parts in the panel? Would we start with the display part of the panel and then go with the pcb panel...? How much chance of getting in over our heads or electrocuting ourselves...?

thx!

 

[mknauss]

Hayward Aquarite SWG - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

See if the article above answers any of your questions.

 

[C0d3Sp4c3]

How do you test the salt level? Do you have your own salt test kit like the Taylor K-1766?
I understand the limitations on your part but we will be needing your cooperation to better understand what you're dealing with.
Disconnect the AC power to the SWCG. Remove the front panel and take a couple of pictures of the controller board from different angles. Post it and we go from there. Thanks

 

[outdoorsgal]

Marty and c0d3sp4c3, thx for your help! The link is a great resource! We took off the cell and my husband said there was calcium. I wonder if there was some calcium hidden that we couldn't see when we tried a couple of weeks ago. It was strange that after a week on vacay the pool wasn't green so I assumed it had to do with the display and that the cell was still working. After 2 weeks or so the pool did get a bit of algae and I did a SLAM. Ofcourse, at that time I was watching the FC closely and even after the SLAM it seemed the cell was working, even with the light on. Maybe this cell/panel combo is extra good for letting us know early on when there is a prob? The last cell didnt' let us know until it was certainly not producing chlorine anymore. relief that the panel is good and we'll cancel the appt for Leslies who was going to come out to check the cell. Maybe we were in a rush and didn't check good the first time or there was just a bit of chlorine we couldn't see. we'll never know but this will be filed away in my memory and notes for if it happens again. thx!

 

[mknauss]

Great to hear.

You really should not get calcium build up in your SWCG. Properly managing your pool water chemistry with a proper test kit should prevent that.

 

[outdoorsgal]

Marty, I realize we should not get build up. We aren't checking out levels daily and will have to get back to that when we empty our pool in Oct/Nov so we have been lazy about maintaining it. Once we refill we're planning on getting back to the daily TFP method. For now I'm at least glad i mostly understand the science behind it and haven't been getting ripped off by the pool store or too confused other than this. much more confidence than 5 yrs ago when we built the pool. thx!

 

[mknauss]

You can manage a pool with a SWCG with only checking FC and pH twice a week or so. That is what I do. Add acid twice a week from May to September. CH is nearly 800 ppm right now. I have never had to clean calcium from my SWCG (in its 7th year).

 

[outdoorsgal]

Marty, that's amazing! and i imagine your H20 is hard like ours in Phoenix?

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

So.....I have one of the cleanest if not the cleanest tile line in the entire neighborhood and my three month old Circupool Universal 40 cell which is just about the same equipment as the AquaRite looked like someone stuffed a snowball into it. The problem with the water here in Tucson anyway is the TA is high... And has been super difficult for me to keep down without having to continuously raise pH afterwards..


And in my case the plaster is new and I don't want to run at -0.1 to -0.2 CSI to keep the cell from scaling. I suspect that Phoenix water is even worse from what I have heard. I ran very close to CSI 0, if anything slightly negative all three months, I only let it go for two weeks once, and even then I was better than +0.2 when I corrected it.

So I suspect that I will have to replace cells more often and honestly that is why I bought a Universal 40 and not a RJ. Cheaper but more often replacement.

I suspect the fact that it's almost impossible to get TA here under 100 is the issue. I am going to try to keep my pool at - 0.1 average from now on and see if it is better but I won't know until next year if that helps, or at least until the end of the season.

The Universal 40 and AquaRites will definitely start reading "low salt" before getting completely scaled up. I can verify that. In fact I raised my salt level up a bit when I cleaned the cell and if I see it drop under the K-1766 level (it reads higher when clean) then I will know that it's starting to scale again. I am glad I have a readout with a number on it.

I am pretty religious about my TFP. Maybe not as much as many of you are. Really my worst transgression has been not recording non weekly small tests into Pool Math.

I think it is entirely possible with Phoenix water to also have good CSIs and scale up a cell. There are times I think there is more rock in the water here than water.

But if the poster isn't keeping track of the saturation index well, then for sure this will happen. So if anything I would recommend keeping close track of it and running CSI a bit negative if the rest of the equipment and plaster can handle it. Do use a bit more acid every week in the simplest terms.

 

[mknauss]

Marty, that's amazing! and i imagine your H20 is hard like ours in Phoenix?

I live a 1/4 mile from the Colorado River. And that is where we both get our water from.
CH 250 ppm, TA 130 ppm. I keep my TA at 80 or below, pH rises to 7.8 and I lower it to 7.4. Twice a week from May to September.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Our CH is pretty good here usually in the fill water... Fortunately.. The CACO3 hardness level right now is only 155 PPM (9.09 gpg) according to the water department... But out fill pH is always between 7.5 and 7.7 here and they have a generic "minerals" measurement that is always around 350 PPM. (I have been tempted for a long time to ask them what that means, if anyone knows, speak up... I don't think it's TDS I usually read higher than that with my own measurements). So the only two problems that I seem to have is the high pH fill water and the mystery minerals being what I think might be the source of the Alkalinity. But I actually have better water than the main system in Tucson and Tucson is better than Phoenix as far as I understand. I read average CACO3 hardness in Phoenix is around 260 PPM and varies up to triple in areas. Both places mix in groundwater with Colorado River water though my system is 100% groundwater and processed reclaimed water.

As much as I don't like soaking the cell in acid I think I will have to do a bit of it over its lifespan. It's cheaper than damaging the plaster.

I suspect if I could get the TA down to 80 I would never scale up either. I got it there in the hot tub but it took weeks. It's a lot easier to raise the pH in the tub with aeration too. The pool refills with 170-180 TA water from my fill water measurements so it's a battle for me. Right now I am stuck at about 110 TA. I have had it down to 100 but since it's been so hot out its been creeping up.

The struggle is real, man. In Arizona everything is trying to kill you. Literally.

I have gone from adding a cup of MA once a week to adding a little under half of a cup three times a week.. I will see if that helps. Like I said I am going to try to keep CSI negative all the time now if I can.

But what I was trying to say is that my CSI the whole time would have been called "good" by most people here not just adequate and I still scaled completely up in three months. And I know it's worse in Phoenix. Many people here told me not to worry about the TA because I kept the water balanced. Unfortunately enough OH- is produced in the cell that it might be bad advice. I am also considering turning up the RPMs a little on the VSP because that could have contributed to my issue.. But too much more it will cheaper to replace the cell more often than pay for electricity over the span.

 

[outdoorsgal]

Marty how often do you need to test and add acid in the beginning of the season before you r able to get everything in that kind of balance? Or did u simply do alt the foundational work in the beginning, 7 years ago? what do u do the rest of the year, Oct-April? The amt of calcium u gave is out of the tap, right? I think I get up to the 800s. How often do u empty your pool h20? u also have a cartridge filter, so u're not backwashing like we need to with DE, I believe...

Rattus Suffocatus,
I believe it was Gene in Phoenix area who hasn't emptied his pool h20 or had to clean his salt cell for 7 years (this was a couple years ago, I think, so maybe he's gone longer by now). From what i recall I think he has really high CH but still a clean cell...

I've gotta change my cell on my signature. Good point about the salt level being higher when it's clean. That would make sense if it says "low salt" when it's almost not working. With the Hayward cell it seemed by the time the light went on it was too late and pool would turn green. With the jacuzzi cell, my complaint was that Leslies can't test their own cell, they need to come out to test it. How I'll know when it's truly bad will mean paying them a trip charge or buying a new one and testing that one out and assuming if the new one works then the old one is bad.

pretty awsome your pH is so low out of the tap. i'd have to measure right out of the tap, but i think it's 8.2. that's what my pool goes back to if i don't add acid for a handful of days.

pool math- my phone doesn't have the capacity so i haven't downloaded it. I've used the old version until last time I couldn't find a way to access the old version. Maybe I just dont liike change but at a glance I don't like the new version. when i empty my pool i'll have to figure out how to use the newer ap.

TA-depending on how hard I was trying, just looking back in some of the notes I kept, i've seen it at 130, 90, and 60. I think when I had it at 60 I was also going nuts with the TFP method and felt like my life was too busy to truly do a full on true TFP method. I know I've had some repercussions later, though, which are expensive and time consuming due to not checking water often enough and getting dialed in...

 

[mknauss]

Out of the tap you get CH of 800? Ok -- that is very high.
Right now I exchange the water every 16 months or so. It takes that long to go from 250 to 800+ ppm CH. I run a cycle to lower the TA from the fill 130 ppm to 80 ppm over a week or so. Not real difficult to achieve.
I add less acid through the winter. Still have to, but not as much. SWCG runs all but about 6 weeks.
I do have a cartridge filter that I used to clean about every year. As the cartridges are now nearly 7 years old, I seem to only be getting about 8 months or so out of a cleaning. They need a TSP soak this next time.

 

[mgtfp]

i'd have to measure right out of the tap, but i think it's 8.2. that's what my pool goes back to if i don't add acid for a handful of days.

It's not the pH of your tap water that your pool is tending towards. It depends on the amount of dissolved CO2 in your pool water, which is determined by the carbonate alkalinity part of the TA, which is roughly CA = TA - CYA/3. The water tends to outgas CO2 until it reaches equilibrium, increasing pH on the way. Depending on TA and CYA, equilibrium is usually somewhere inbetween 7.8 and 8.5. For high TA, it can be even higher.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

I am going to have to try to lower the TA somehow. I am certain that is my problem. We do have low Ca/Mg hardness here and I suppose I am lucky in that respect. I don't have a good physical setup with my pool to aerate unfortunately.. I probably will need to build something eventually. I still wish I knew what the other dissolved solids are here though because from that respect it's pretty high. I do know that's normally a don't care for TFP... but I still wonder...

I actually wanted to run the softened water into the autofill but the way my house is plumbed that would have been a repipe of the house. But if my CH were 800 out of the tap? I would probably have a cheap water softener is a shed outside! I am pretty religious in covering my pool which I think has helped with my minimal CH rise so far.. If I can keep this up I might not need to refill next year. But the disadvantage is that the pool gets used a lot more when the cover is off. No one likes to remove it or put it back on.

SWCG's definitely drift up pH and CSI/LSI levels. Mine is a LOT faster with the SWCG than before. Read the wikipedia article about them and the chemical equations are even there. MA is still cheap though so eventually I will get it. I thought of adding borates but my dogs think the pool is their personal water bowl as it is and I am going to try to avoid it. But otherwise I think I'd be a candidate for them.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

And in my defense, the consensus was that I would be fine when I asked about my TA problem if I kept the CSI good even with the higher than recommended TA. (I could probably find my posts asking about it if need be.) So I managed it a little tighter than I did before and had the cell scale up. I am going to try tighter still management with a lower CSI target but I didn't want to run too low with less than one year old plaster. And I still know it's worse in Phoenix... Hopefully I'll make it six months next time... or longer... The whole season would be a reasonable compromise I think without reducing the cell life much.

 

[outdoorsgal]

Marty, you empty your pool every 16 mths? that makes sense. After a couple of years is when I was really working hard to keep things balance. That's when CH got above 800, not out of the tap. glad u clarified.
Fred, I don't recall what the CH is out of the tap but I checked my notes and I've only drained my pool once. When I did CH was 875. Fresh water looked like 225. What I wonder is if there was CH in the bottom after draining. I later learned that even the small puddle in the bottom is important to clean out of the pool cuz the CH could've been sitting there, which makes sense. It's prob heavier than H20... So, it's 225 or less if my calculations were good at that time.so

I hate to waste water so I think I went almost 3 years before draining. Maybe now that we're discussing this, Gene didn't wait to drain his pool. Definitely was hard to keep in balance at 875 CH.

 

[mgtfp]

SWCG's definitely drift up pH and CSI/LSI levels. Mine is a LOT faster with the SWCG than before. Read the wikipedia article about them and the chemical equations are even there

I know that Wikipedia article you are referring to, and it is articles like these that add to the confusion.

Quote from this Wikipedia article: "Salt water chlorination produces an excess of hydroxyl ions whilst releasing chlorine from salt, which makes the pool alkaline (sodium hydroxide, NaOH, caustic soda)."

Yes, this happens. But this pH rise is being compensated by the subsequent use (i.e. UV-breakdown, sanitation and oxidation) of chlorine. The chlorination cycle is pH neutral. Just the same as with adding bleach: Adding bleach raises pH, but the following usage of chlorine brings the pH back down. The whole cycle is pH neutral.

Main driver for the extra pH rise with SWGs is extra CO₂ out-gassing due to the hydrogen bubbles (which can be limited by proper TA-management). Another factor can be undissolved chlorine gas out-gassing if there is a short pipe run between the cell and the pool - the lost chlorine will be missing to bring pH back down by being used (but it was created by the cell in the first place and contributed to the initial pH rise).

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Okay.. whatever. I am using at least three times the MA than I did prior to using the cell. I guess I don't care why, I am not going to further modify the design of the pool plumbing physically regardless.. it's not worth the effort.

I am a bit flustered though that when I asked about this months ago I was told "don't worry about the TA if the CSI is good" and now I am finding it really is an issue. Try keeping your TA at 80 in a desert in 107F weather with 180 TA fill water without driving the pH down to the point that you then have to aerate non stop to get it balanced again. so you don't damage the plaster. I can and do do that in the hot tub, but since I control the fill on that, it eventually stabilizes. Plus it's fiberglass. meh.

I probably am going to have to be as aggressive as I can with it but still descale the cell periodically and replace it more often. At some point good enough and practical is better than perfect.

 

[Rattus Suffocatus]

Marty, you empty your pool every 16 mths? that makes sense. After a couple of years is when I was really working hard to keep things balance. That's when CH got above 800, not out of the tap. glad u clarified.
Fred, I don't recall what the CH is out of the tap but I checked my notes and I've only drained my pool once. When I did CH was 875. Fresh water looked like 225. What I wonder is if there was CH in the bottom after draining. I later learned that even the small puddle in the bottom is important to clean out of the pool cuz the CH could've been sitting there, which makes sense. It's prob heavier than H20... So, it's 225 or less if my calculations were good at that time.so

I hate to waste water so I think I went almost 3 years before draining. Maybe now that we're discussing this, Gene didn't wait to drain his pool. Definitely was hard to keep in balance at 875 CH.

Unfortunately, water tends to accumulate solids over time and eventually all pools will need a portion of the water refilled eventually. You can always figure out the pool parameters from running an outside silcox for a minute or so and then sampling the water just like it is from the pool. Don't bother with chlorine level. You can get extra data usually from the water department. Hopefully it's just online for you.

You can then use that to calculate out a drain and refill. We are lucky and that we can't really float our pool here because the groundwater is 250+ feet deep... so we can at least do a real drain and refill and not a progressive one that wastes water.

If you partially refilled then your fill water is likely less than 250 CH. But that is a good level to take it down to for plaster.. it's a little low, but in our case where it rapidly goes up anyway.. it's okay. Go ahead and check it and TA. It will tell you a lot, actually. Our water here isn't really that hard, but yet it sucks for scaling everywhere... even in the toilets and even after being softened.

Even here in the desert with low water.. refilling the pool half way is, what, a $200 endeavor? At some point that is cheaper and less frustrating than trying to fix with chemicals. Just avoid doing it for convenience if you are trying to be "Green". Do it when you need to. The laws of physics apply here, just be smart about it.

I am sorry to have hijacked your thread. Hopefully I did ask what you were thinking. If you are having scaling problems in the cell like I apparently did even though I managed it according to TFP guidelines, then really the only practical solution is to run CSI a little more negative or live with it. I was avoiding that because the pool is still less than a year old.. but it's close to being right at a year now, so it's probably time to stop babying it for me.

But what you described initially is exactly what I saw with my cell. Hopefully everyone is learning something from this. A new cell in my case is like $370, so as long as I can make it two full seasons (three would be better) then that is what I have counted in my financial calculations anyway.