Disable ozonator or leave? ...and other balancing concerns

[thunder550]

I have my pool under control using the TFP method, but seem to have trouble keeping my spa water clear and in balance.

I have a Bullfrog A6 spa, 360 gallon capacity. It came with the Frog Ease system, which I am not using - wanted to maintain my pool and spa on the same treatment method / schedule. The spa has a WellSpring High Output Ozone system installed from the factory - which I understand burns off any chlorine that I add in short order. I had initially planned to sanitize with liquid chlorine after use, and cover the spa - then let the ozonator do it's thing until the next use. Worked ok for a few days, but then the water turned cloudy again. I'm wondering if I should disable the ozonator to help keep the chlorine longer?

Currently have CH of 210, CYA is zero.

I had TA of 80 and PH of 7.8 about a week ago, but since then TA has drifted up to 100 and PH dropped to 7.2 (measured yesterday). Spa has not been used and has remained covered in between these measurements. I can shock/SLAM the spa and the chlorine disappears within a day or two, presumable due to the ozonator.

Looking for any recommendations you all have on tweaks to TFP methodology and/or disabling ozonator - seems to make the swings a lot wider on the spa, even when not in use. Thanks!

 

[thunder550]

I just ran a full set of tests, after adding 2 cups of liquid chlorine yesterday:
1.0 FC
1.2 CC
7.4 pH
120 TA
270 CH
0 CYA

Alkalinity is increasing quite a bit, I was at 80 a week ago and now up to 120, with an increase from 100 to 120 just since yesterday.

 

[Casey]

You have high CC which means you got something growing in the water.

 

[5tan]

Your CH is quite high - the cloudiness could just be calcium. Reduce your CH to the 150-180 range, which is higher than the minimum for the purpose of reducing foaming. If you don't have foaming issues, use the lowest recommended number to rule out precipitated calcium. High CH can accelerate mineral scaling on metal components if your pH drifts up - and pH does drift up over time as jets aerate the water, which can be slowed by using borates.

Whenever having cloudy water, do this:
1) Clean your filters thoroughly using a Filter Flosser and Powerpic Reach to blast off all debris, even the barely visible debris like skin flakes, from both sides of the coreless filters, followed by a soaking in chemical cleanser overnight. Rinse well, then reinstall.
2) Set your filtration cycle to 24 hours per day and don't touch any controls during this time. The ozonator will not run if any controls are touched. You want the ozonator to burn off CCs, and which also burns off your FC. Measure FC every 6-12 hours, and whenever your FC drops to 3, add enough chlorinating liquid to get to 5-10 FC. Your spa should never go below 3ppm FC no matter what's going on - always maintain baseline minimum of 3ppm FC.
3) After 1-3 days of this 24 hour filtration & ozonation while maintaining 3ppm FC, your water should be clear.

If you haven't already, you should do a thorough internal pipe cleaning purge using Ahhsome, and use a blue Lysol sponge to really scrub down all surfaces you can reach, especially behind the Jetpak seats. If you have biofilm growth in your plumbing and/or Jetpaks, your FC levels will drop quickly due to the biofilms. Use the drain plug when draining to flush out accummulated debris - if you QuickVac without flushing out the drain port, that one-way channel of water can potentially harbor biofilms or other contaminants.

 

[thunder550]

Your CH is quite high - the cloudiness could just be calcium. Reduce your CH to the 150-180 range, which is higher than the minimum for the purpose of reducing foaming. If you don't have foaming issues, use the lowest recommended number to rule out precipitated calcium. High CH can accelerate mineral scaling on metal components if your pH drifts up - and pH does drift up over time as jets aerate the water, which can be slowed by using borates.

Whenever having cloudy water, do this:
1) Clean your filters thoroughly using a Filter Flosser and Powerpic Reach to blast off all debris, even the barely visible debris like skin flakes, from both sides of the coreless filters, followed by a soaking in chemical cleanser overnight. Rinse well, then reinstall.
2) Set your filtration cycle to 24 hours per day and don't touch any controls during this time. The ozonator will not run if any controls are touched. You want the ozonator to burn off CCs, and which also burns off your FC. Measure FC every 6-12 hours, and whenever your FC drops to 3, add enough chlorinating liquid to get to 5-10 FC. Your spa should never go below 3ppm FC no matter what's going on - always maintain baseline minimum of 3ppm FC.
3) After 1-3 days of this 24 hour filtration & ozonation while maintaining 3ppm FC, your water should be clear.

If you haven't already, you should do a thorough internal pipe cleaning purge using Ahhsome, and use a blue Lysol sponge to really scrub down all surfaces you can reach, especially behind the Jetpak seats. If you have biofilm growth in your plumbing and/or Jetpaks, your FC levels will drop quickly due to the biofilms. Use the drain plug when draining to flush out accummulated debris - if you QuickVac without flushing out the drain port, that one-way channel of water can potentially harbor biofilms or other contaminants.

Thanks for the detailed reply. A bit more history - we just got the spa in February, brand new from the factory. I over-added CYA at one point, so drained and refilled the water about a month ago. I have sprayed the filters off but have not yet done a chemical bath - but have a second set of filters and chemical bath solution showing up later today, so I can get a swap/clean rotation going.

I did end up disconnecting the ozone system - wanted to see if it would allow FC to last a bit longer. Seems I may have shot myself in the foot regarding CC though...while the FC has been a little better and the water has cleared up, the CC has remained around 1ppm. I have maintained the SLAM FC level for a couple days and the water looks good now. Next time I change it out I'll bring the CH up more slowly so I don't overshoot like I did this time. If the CC remains up I'll reconnect the ozone here soon since the water is cleared up, and just watch the FC level. I've tried reading up about keeping vs disabling the ozone generator and it seems to be split opinions.

 

[thunder550]

Following up on this. Since last post water has stayed clear. I bought and installed a new set of filters and did a chemical bath on the old ones, so now have the ability to rotate them.

Water was drained and refilled 1.5-2 months ago. Since it's warming up here in AZ, we are using the spa sparingly, maybe once or twice a week, 1-3 people.

I'd like to eliminate the 1ppm CC that I've had in my spa for the last few weeks. Disabling the ozone system a few weeks ago helped reduce the FC burn off, but also seems to have eliminated the ability to oxidize the CC.


Yesterday, I hooked the ozone system back up and put it on a switch so I can turn it on or off as desired. 24 hours later and I'm still getting the same 1ppm as yesterday. Is this a process that will take some time? I'm adding LC to keep FC from going to zero. From what I've read it seems that the ozone system should be able to remove the CC but I guess I'm not sure if there's anything else I need to do.

 

[Bperry]

I’m surprised no one has recommended turning off the ozone system yet. I guess I get to.

If it’s covered, it would be good to remove the cover for a bit during the day or remove it a few hours before and after use. That way the CC’s have time to burn off. But they don’t burn off with ozone, they burn off with chlorine and airflow. The FC will get used up fast at 103F.

 

[thunder550]

I’m surprised no one has recommended turning off the ozone system yet. I guess I get to.

If it’s covered, it would be good to remove the cover for a bit during the day or remove it a few hours before and after use. That way the CC’s have time to burn off. But they don’t burn off with ozone, they burn off with chlorine and airflow. The FC will get used up fast at 103F.

Everything I'm reading says that ozone should oxidize CC...is that not the case?

I can absolutely leave the tub uncovered for awhile...have not tried that. Was planning to turn the ozone system back off after removing the CC, I don't want it running except when needed.

And yeah I'm closely monitoring FC to make sure it stays up. Thanks!

 

[Bperry]

Everything I'm reading says that ozone should oxidize CC...is that not the case?

I forgot this was a spa. I’ll let someone else chime in on that but Im fairly confident it’s not needed in a spa and certainly not in a pool, but spas get special consideration sometimes. I don’t have a spa. Definitely leave the cover off if you can.

Ozone Systems - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Methuselah]

If cover is off and hot tub is not in the shade then the sun will quickly deplete FC if your CYA is zero.

I did the math on the two cups of bleach you poured in, at 5.25% concentration and 360 gallon tub it came to 18.2 ppm of CL. While I am unfamiliar with the particulars of a Bullfrog A6 spa, any very high level of FC has the potential to cause damages if it is prolonged or repeated so I would choose a target when super chlorinating and compute accordingly.

When adding CL I suppose a high level can effect readings taken for PH? Maybe ALK too (I'm not knowledgeable in that regard), so it's possible the swings you pointed out in your measurements were temporary/induced? You should be aware though, agitation of the water and particularly having the air controls turned up, will raise your PH. Unless that was your intent perhaps agitation should be at a controlled minimum when the tub is not in use since it does run during filter cycles.

Hopefully the experts will chime in and straighten out the "mess" I've offered up

 

[karmabiker]

Keep in mind that bullfrog wet tests every hot tub before they ship it. That means that you may have something alive in the drain tube (seems you have done everything else correctly and exhausted all the easy methods.

What I would do (YMMV):
Try this first:
Bring your temp down to whatever you can hit as an ambient in AZ...
Bring your CYA up to the 20-30 range using dichlor (the FC is going to need a buffer for this)
Bring your FC up to 8 ppm and be on the ready with more liquid chlorine
Open the top up and turn on the jets, let the sun do its thing
Open and close the drain tube every hour or so ... do this all day.
Check your CC at the end of the day and see if progress has been made.

If number one doesn't work...
Ahh-Some treatment to the spa and drain it using the drain plug.... That should kill anything in the drain tube and in the spa....

Chris

Drop me a DM if you need direct help. Happy to get on the phone (I'm retired now with time to burn )

 

[phonedave]

A couple of points, many of which I experience myself (and I just happen to have an A6 as well)

- If your Ozone is hooked up, it will consume FC. Mine can eat up to 2 ppm a day when it gets hungry
- Purge that thing with Ahhsome. Mine was on an unconditioned (ie hot) truck, after being wet tested, for like a month. You likely have biofilm in your plumbing
- There are non-volatile CC's out there. They will not burn off. It happens, but it does not account for your high numbers. Towards the end of a water cycle (4+ months) for me, I can have a constant extremely light tinge of pink when testing for CC's. My FC holds just fine, the water is clear, and no amount of breakpoint chlorination gets rid of them. I would not even call them 0.5 ppm, but I can just see the lightest tinge of pink in the water when testing.
- You should let your tub vent (open the cover, turn on the jets) to let the CC's escape. If I use my tub at night (introducing organics), dose it with beach when I get out, and closed the cover, I will show CC's if I open the cover and immediately test in the AM. However, 10 minutes after opening the cover, they are gone.
- My pH and TA go the other direction. Usually the pH in a tub will drift up, not down, due to the jets. Then you add acid, and it lowers your TA. You can look at my pool logs and see where mine goes. I can get it pretty stable at around 7.5 - 7.8 pH but even then I still have to add acid at least weekly. Eventually by TA gets too low, and then I have to add baking soda.
- Keep in mind a 350 gal tub is a lot smaller than a pool. I am a big believer in not over measuring, especially in a pool. When I am adding a pound of CYA to my 17,000 gallon pool there is no need to measure to the nearest 0.1 oz. But in a hot tub, you do have to be more accurate. I had a habit of not measuring bleach, but now I have a cup marked in oz in my hot tub storage. I may not check the FC first, but I know I am adding 2 oz (within the limits of a 10 cent plastic cup, it likely being dark, and not bothering to account for parallax or a meniscus.