Curious about TFP Knowledge Base

[PoolStored]

Tri-chlor (Pucks), which contains CYA is the largest segment of Global pool revenue and profit. Ain't going away soon...consumers want convenience, not clarity.

"Global Swimming Pool Treatment Chemicals key players include Occidental Chemical, ICL Industrial Products, Clorox Pool & Spa, Ercros S.A., BioLab, etc. Global top five manufacturers hold a share about 25%. North America is the largest market, with a share about 60%, followed by Europe, with a share about 30 percent. In terms of product, Trichloroisocyanuric Acid is the largest segment, with a share about 30%. And in terms of application, the largest application is Residential Pool, followed by Commercial Pool."

Swimming Pool Treatment Chemicals Market Size, Manufacturers, Supply Chain, Sales Channel and Clients, 2021-2027

In 2020, the global Swimming Pool Treatment Chemicals market size was US$ 1101 million and it is expected to reach US$ 1439.3 million by the end of 2027, with a CAGR of 4.

www.linkedin.com

 

[PoolStored]

 

[Newdude]

“Your headlight fluid Is low.”

I've said many times that nobody in their right mind would walk into a SpiffyLube looking confused and ask then to check their fluid levels. But they do the exact same at the pool store all the time, with a similar result.

Instead of getting their muffler bearings tightened, they get sold CarribianBlue RX and some flocculant.

 

[wdsheffer]

Tri-chlor (Pucks), which contains CYA is the largest segment of Global pool revenue and profit. Ain't going away soon...consumers want convenience, not clarity.

The demand for convenience is real, and legit. I think to myself how much simpler could some of this be if I could buy chlorine pucks sans CYA.

 

[wdsheffer]

I've said many times that nobody in their right mind would walk into a SpiffyLube looking confused and ask then to check their fluid levels.

Well, sounds like the bread and butter of the quick lube industry is not in their right minds then, lol.

 

[AUSpool]

The science of pool care, founded by O’Brian, Wojtowicz and others. Brought to you by TFP.

I tell people who care that I prefer to follow the chemistry rather then the glossy sales and marketing promotions.

A good place to start for in-depth reading is the stickies in the deep end. You can also read through the articles in the Journal of the Swimming Pool and Spa Industry.

 

[PoolStored]

A good place to start for in-depth reading is the stickies in the deep end. You can also read through the articles in the Journal of the Swimming Pool and Spa Industry.

Funny you should mention this...this article came out just this spring on Cyanuric Acid Requirement Versus Free Chlorine in Pool Water

How long have we known this?

JSPSI Volume 6 Number 2 – Spring 2023

https://2e7fc7.p3cdn1.secureserver.net/wp-content/uploads/2023/03/JSPSI_V6N2_pp6-13.pdf

Cites: Falk, O'Brien and Wojtowicz.

 

[wdsheffer]

A good place to start for in-depth reading is the stickies in the deep end. You can also read through the articles in the Journal of the Swimming Pool and Spa Industry.

Awesome, thanks.

 

[mgtfp]

I get your concerns. Why trust a bunch of people on the internet over the "experts"? Had those doubts myself. And in some areas I will still favour an "official" expert's opinion over a few random google search results. Like my GP. I do have some confidence in my GP that he actually has a qualification that's worth the paper it's printed on, and that he actually understands the things he has been taught in his training. And that his teachers also did.

I landed here after asking google if FC should be adjusted to the CYA level after having an inkling that the chemical bond between chlorine and CYA, that protects chlorine from UV, should also remove chlorine's super powers. And I landed straight in the Deep End. The way how Chem Geek explained the whole chemistry, with references to various sources (as listed above be AUSPool) convinced me that he actually knows what he is talking about. And I read most of these references myself. And that's what convinced me in the end - reading and understanding what's going on in my pool.

This is the main difference between TFP and Pool Stores - here are people that have bothered to actually read and understand the relevant literature about pool water chemistry. Above mentioned Paper from O'Brien has been published in 1974, and been widely ignored by the pool industry. It doesn't help to make money. In more recent times, David Wahman from the EPA built on O'Brien's model and applied the importance of the the FC/CYA ratio to the disinfection of drinking water when using chlorinated cyanurates as source of chlorine. See for example here, here and here.

I think there was some progress over the years. When you read TFP's wiki article about the CPO training, you see a summary from Chem Geek about all the things that were not taught in the training in 2009. Looking into the latest 2022 version of the CPO manual, you'll notice some progress. For example, you will see that on page 55 they are showing an FC/CYA table that is based on a recommendation of Richard Falk (aka Chem Geek) et al. as shown in this publication. This table is based on a min FC/CYA ratio of 5%, which is lower than what TFP recommends for residential outdoor pools. But this CPO table is only based on what's necessary to keep water sanitary, not what's needed to keep algae at bay. Once algae got a hold, it will be difficult to maintain these FC levels. It is essentially a compromise between acknowledging that FC needs to be adjusted to CYA and accepted upper limits for FC in the industry, whether they make sense or not. I'm sure that Richard would have loved to recommend higher FC levels, but knew that he'd eventually fail with a too ambitious goal.

On page 62, the CPO training now at least acknowledges that "at high levels of total alkalinity, the pH is usually higher than ideal" and recommends different TA ranges for "high pH" and "low pH" chlorination methods. But they still don't explain that the complete chlorination cycle with liquid chlorine is pH neutral and that the reason behind the pH rise is CO2 outgassing which is driven by high TA.

It still doesn't explain that the effectiveness of chlorine doesn't decrease as drastically with increasing pH with CYA in the water, it still only references the pH dependency of HOCl without CYA. Sigh...

 

[wdsheffer]

I get your concerns. Why trust a bunch of people on the internet over the "experts"? Had those doubts myself. And in some areas I will still favour an "official" expert's opinion over a few random google search results. Like my GP. I do have some confidence in my GP that he actually has a qualification that's worth the paper it's printed on, and that he actually understands the things he has been taught in his training. And that his teachers also did.

Yep, that’s all. I’m very susceptible to the lure of stick-it-to-man-cause-an-internet-forum-said-so, and just want to do a modicum of due diligence before going head first. Thanks for the input.

 

[thefloatqueen]

I’m just here for the comments.

 

[IceShadow]

The demand for convenience is real, and legit. I think to myself how much simpler could some of this be if I could buy chlorine pucks sans CYA.

I got a SWCG this year and I have nothing to do to my pool now. >.>