See, I'm all for conflict and learning the hard way. I have a 7 year old that will listen to no one and must learn every lesson with a failure. Love and Logic is the key - you love them enough to let the natural consequences of doing stupid things teach them a lesson. Then, when they see that the error has cost them something real (money, time, frustration, etc), they will learn a valuable lesson. Consequences work, you just have to be able to stomach all of the grief during the process.....