Confused about PH

Chris use the turkey baster to get a sample of the brown stuff. Use a paper towel or coffee filter to catch it.

Does Robin know how to sign in here? Make sure she does so she can ask for help or just to check in as needed. You two are welcome to use the same account. It makes life easier. Just sign your names so we know which one we are talking to.

Kim
 
Keeping to the subject of this thread we've also found a way to hone our color test accuracy for pH. I bought a highly rated but very inexpensive meter and also bought some pre-mixed calibration fluid. I'm finding with this as our back-up we're getting pretty good at pH

IMO, a ph meter is a useful adjunct to any test kit...not as a regular testing device, but as a means to allow one to be more confident and comfortable in reading ph colors. There is considerable subjectivity to discerning the color of something, as numerous studies about the human eye have demonstrated (lest we forget the lessons of the recent "what color is this dress" internet rave).

It wouldn't surprise me in the least if some ppl are +/- 4 on their ph readings, which could be problematic if one is seeking to maintain a certain ph level...say at 7.4 or 7.6.

Moreover, my ph calibrated level of 7.6 doesn't look like the 7.6 color on the comparator block...something raised in several other posts. Reducing the number of drops is one way of tweaking the color to address this. It is also the case that viewing the comparator block with different colored (blue sky vs white paper) backgrounds will vary the color of the block, the sample or both (obviously). Given the foregoing, a properly calibrated ph meter is neither an expensive exercise nor an unwarranted one.

Besides, playing around with ph meters and even doing the simple calibration step (buy premixed calibration solutions) has a geek factor and entertainment value that is worth the rather inexpensive price of admission for those similarly inclined as you and me.
 
Folks,

Thanks for all the great replies! The aeration makes a lot of sense. Water returns to the spa and then through two overflows to the pool all the time the pump runs. I run it from 9 am to about 5 pm to take advantage of the solar heating so I'm doing a lot of aeration. Joyful, I'm still trying to follow the water chemistry... so what happens to the H+ that is liberated? Does it combine with dissolved O2 until a new equilibrium is achieved... I guess there's a plentiful supply with my aeration. Sorry for the dumb water chemistry questions it's just been a LONG time and never was my strong suit.

If you reverse the equilibrium equation Matt showed:

HCO3-- + H+ ---> CO2(g) + H2O
Bicarbonate Ion + Hydrogen Ion ---> Carbon Dioxide Gas + Water

you can see that the hydrogen does not leave the water but rather goes from being a separate ion to being part of a water molecule itself. You can think of the bicarbonate ion as being a part of a water molecule (specifically a hydroxyl ion) and carbon dioxide. So what goes on can be thought of as follows (see this link for the chemical structure of bicarbonate ion where below I've moved the charge to the hydroxyl portion for greater clarity of the reaction):

OOC-OH- + H+ ---> COO(g) + H-OH
Bicarbonate Ion + Hydrogen Ion ---> Carbon Dioxide Gas + Water

Only the carbon dioxide portion of the bicarbonate leaves the water. The "partial water" portion (OH-) stays to combine with the other "partial water" (H+) to become water. Water itself is in equilibrium with these two "partial water" pieces:

H2O <---> H+ + OH-
Water <---> Hydrogen Ion + Hydroxyl Ion
 
Thanks Chem Geek, I was typing my "never mind" reply as you were answering. I realized it was a pretty dumb question when I re-read JN's answer.

It's very cool to have real water chemistry experts here.

Chris
 
I should have been more specific. My chemistry knowledge is not nearly as deep as chem geek's and he is much more thorough and pedagogical in his posts, in short, a very valuable asset to TFP. I often forget that most folks here are not chemistry experts and many would probably rather forget that they ever had to sit through a chemistry class. The key for me in my early chemistry days was to learn that most reactions are equilirium reactions, that is, the arrow in the reaction is a double arrow which means that both the forward (left-to-right) and backwards (right-to-left) reactions are happening simultaneously. I'm a very concrete-thinker and, as such, always want chemical reactions to go one way and to go to completion, kind of like this one -

HCl + NaOH ----> NaCl + H2O

(muriatic acid) + (lye) ---> (salt) + (water)

The truth is that if you could take a snapshot of the solution on a really fine time scale then that reaction actually goes both ways. But, because the forward reaction is so much more energetically favorable and happening at a rate that is so much faster than the backwards reaction, the only thing you ever see is a glass full of salty water. One can certainly stick electrodes in the water and add special separation membranes to turn salt water back into acid and lye, but that takes lots of energy and effort to do and can never really happen completely (ie, you could never turn salt water back fully into acid and lye).

So, whenever you see pool water equations, try to think of it like an equilibrium - there's a forward reaction and a backwards reaction. Then, depending on what we the pool owners do to our water, we bias that reaction in one direction or the other.
 
JN,

I really appreciate the additional explanation and your original answer was actually very clear... it took me a second read but as I read it again it really was clear. I agree about Chem Geek. I'm clearly very new here but I've read a LOT of his posts as well as yours. What's really neat to me is the scientists like him and you plus all the practical techniques we read from people in every aspect of pool care. It's all why I very quickly determined this was a place that I could get huge benefit and I was happy to contribute a pretty small amount to help defray the costs.

Many thanks for everything y'all do.

Chris
 
Kim,

Great idea and timely since we'll have the turkey baster out in this Thursday! I'll let you know if I'm able to determine anything that way.

Thanks so much for the additional info about the joint account option and making Robin feel welcome. I'm sure she'll get on here sooner or later.

Chris
 
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