confirmation of metal stains

Rr, thanks for the update. Regardless of how you got there, I'm glad your stains are gone. What level did they say your phosphates were at?
The "brown" sure sounds like how iron behaves when it comes out of suspension. Did the company explain what they thought was going on?
 
It's crazy, right? I can't find anything on it either, which is why I want to post it for the readers. The professional company who analyzed the water HAS seen other cases of high phosphates causing stains and was sure that was the issue I was having because the levels were SO high. They have some kind of high dollar water analysis machine, and confirmed that my water was balanced as noted in above readings. At this point, I'm not sure I would call it a "metal" stain either, but I really don't think it was algae (unless phos-free kills algae) because my FC/TC has been under 3ppm, and is at 0-.5 now... it hasn't been high enough this week to kill any algae. My filter has been cleaned repeatly all summer, and eventually sand replaced, after which the stain re-appeared, so it definitely was not cleared up due to filter cleaning. I had just drained/refilled my pool, after which it re-stained.. so I would say the last vacuuming didn't clear the stain.
 
@swampwoman: Their test were showing at least 3000... this was AFTER I had drained and re-filled about 60-75% of the water. I can only imagine what they were prior to the re-fill? The company was sure it was due to the phosphate level, and the treatment worked!
 
I seem to recall an article posted discussing scaling due to phosphates ... the company in the article was actually in Tucson.

Can't remember the title of the post though ... something about a mystery I think.

Posted from my Droid with Tapatalk ... sorry if my response is short ;)
 
Well, rr, thank you for sharing, because at the rate I'm using jack's pink, I won't be far behind you on a high orthophosphate level ;) So if there's any chance that the salts in the spent phsphonc acid combine with iron and thr phos free enzymes somehow floc that iron out of solution to filterable goo, well, I'll keep that in mind if my AA treatment fails this fall and I'm feeling experimental. Who knows? Maybe we'll invent an enzyme that eats iron and retire to a small island ;)
 
Crackpot theory warning, but I thought you would find this interesting...

I looked up the Msds for phosfloc, and it's ammonium sulfate, 100%

Then I read a wiki about what ammonium sulphate is and noted this pp:
this is also used as an agricultural spray adjuvant for water soluble insecticides, herbicides, and fungicides. There it functions to bind iron and calcium cations that are present in both well water and plant cells. It is particularly effective as an adjuvant for 2,4-D (amine), glyphosate, and glufosinate herbicides.

The part that caught my attention was the binding iron part.

Dr. Google and I will continue our deep chem exploration, but given that your floc waste was brown, given former AA treatments working...I'm wondering whether or not there might be a legitimate reason to attempt to control phosphates if one has high iron ;) I know conventional trouble free wisdom says no...but I am wondering if there are odd outlier cases here and there that defy conventional wisdom!

Please keep us posted as to whether the stains stay away or not!
 
RRJ, I know it's been a while since your treatment.
I am curious as to whether your stains have stayed away or not.
I had to abort an AA treatment (water was really cold and stains were lifting slowly, but not completely, but I had to get the water rebalanced for my son's 21st bday party)

Given how quickly some areas responded (eg plastic and steps lightened quickly) and how some heavily calcified areas lifted (but not entirely) I am certain that much of what I'm dealing with is metal, BUT found it odd that the lighter tan stains lightened but did not go away. So I'm left wondering whether I have an under-liner issue )totally possible) or whether I have some phosphate scaling, and I'm thinking about trying a few phosfloc treatments to see if they make a difference.

I would though like to hear your water co's theory about why it works, and to know if the result was lasting in your pool.

If you could pm me the company's number, I'd love to call them. Please let me know if you are able.
 
RRJohnson said:
We use Leslie's Stain Remover - Ascorbic Acid and will completely removed stains. We did have it tested by Leslie's on Saturday after the fresh fill it was perfectly clear - they tested it FC 3/CYA 30 which I think is typical for the municipal water. It also tested 0 on the metals.
How did the 30ppm of CYA get there. City water should not have any CYA. Was this a partial drain leaving some CYA behind?


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Swampwoman said:
I looked up the Msds for phosfloc, and it's ammonium sulfate, 100%
According to Natural Chemistry's website, the MSDS on Phosfree shows a chemical composition of:

7-13% Lanthanum chloride
1-5% Lanthanum sulfate

I'm not sure if Lanthanum sulfate is the same as ammonium sulfate.

UnderWaterVanya said:
Having trouble also trying to understand where the phosphates came from if this was newly filled.
Once again, according to Natural Chemistry's website, their Stain Free product (ascorbic acid) specifically states "phosphate free". Does this mean AA treatment increases phosphates or that AA products typically contain phosphates?

My experience...

Had iron stains, did AA treatment + sequestrant at the beginning of August, and the stains immediately disappeared. I maintained a double dose of sequestrant and kept pH between 7.2-7.8. Stains began returning at the beginning of September and are now about 50% returned.

Side note, before I became a BBB'er and before this aforementioned AA treatment, I was sold on Phosfree by the pool store. It was on sale, too. I accidentally added it directly into the pool instead of the skimmer. A day later, I thought I had mustard algae because of a tan coagulated dust on the bottom of the pool. I can't say for sure if it was iron or not. It vacuumed right up though. I figured it was coagulated phosphates. Perhaps it was iron.
 

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Mustang, this is interesting to me:
Side note, before I became a BBB'er and before this aforementioned AA treatment, I was sold on Phosfree by the pool store. It was on sale, too. I accidentally added it directly into the pool instead of the skimmer. A day later, I thought I had mustard algae because of a tan coagulated dust on the bottom of the pool. I can't say for sure if it was iron or not. It vacuumed right up though. I figured it was coagulated phosphates. Perhaps it was iron.

Re The MSDS on phosfree, yes, it's lanthanum.
I was referring to the phosfloc -- which is a different natural chemistry product, and is meant to be vacuumed to waste -- used only in very high phosphate conditions (mine are 25 ppm or 25,000 ppb, in other words, very high, and in my case, very high because water had been an abandoned swamp for 1.5 years...plus I use jack's pink every week for the iron, which then becomes orthophosphate when "spent").

UnderWater - this is an older thread from early in August. Whether the pool store tested fill water incorrectly or not re: CYA reading, RJ doesn't likely care, because his problem was apparently solved once he used the commercial phosfree AND phosfloc. I only revived the thread in an attempt to confirm that his results have held, because I'll be spending a boatload on it if I decide to try to floc my phosphate load down.

Alternately, H and I are discussing instead just doing a full water change in the spring and having it trucked in.

We had just discovered our softened water was NOT soft due to a plumbing error that was mixing the hard and soft water in the whole house. I HAVE a soft-water spigot to fill the pool, but we've been inadvertently running about a ppm of iron through EVERYTHING for the last 8 weeks. The system is now fixed and we are IRON FREE at the taps...so I will be able to refill/top up if I just change out the water in spring.
 
One more note, just for anyone reading.

Someone, I think Jbizzle, mentioned reading an article about phosphate scaling. I actually have since discovered that in theory at least, RR's situation could possibly be related to a phenom witnessed usually in water treatment where processed water has high (eg. 10-30 ppm phosphate, just like my water - NOTE NOT 1 ppm or 1000 ppb like usually referred to in pool world) where phosphates can interact with calcium and cause something called calcium phosphate scale under certain conditions (not to be confused with carbonic scale).

The theory is a contender in my case because I have the known level of phosphates at 25 ppm, AND my fill water is about 350 ppm calcium BUT my pool only ever seems to read about 130 ppm...so where does the other 200 ppm go from the fill water? -- It is perhaps sequestered by the Jack's and Metal Magic...but could also be involved in creating iron scale, OR phosphate imbued scale coupled with iron, that makes it more difficult to treat with AA. Just a random theory at the moment. Eventually I'll figure it out if by mere process of elimination ;)
 
@mu22stang FROM EARLIER IN THREAD: We used one 3L bottle of PhosFree, and within a day we saw a brown substance starting to floc together. After 2 days, we backwashed (very brown water), then vacuumed the floc'd up areas to waste, and noticed the pool wasn't as stained. We added more water (because we had vacuumed out quite a bit), then treated again with another 3L bottle of phosfree and waited 2 days, backwashed and vacuumed to waste. After 1 week, the stain is completely gone! I've never seen anything but ascorbic acid remove the stain, and we are, to say the least, shocked and ecstatic! We still have over 1000 phosphate level, but are now without stain! Our next step is to use the Phos Floc (which is made for levels over 1000) to try and get more of the phosphates out. We would probably have used this initially but couldn't get it locally so we had to order it online.

Natural Chemistry's website gives you complete instructions and which product to use based on your phosphate levels.
 
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