Communication lost on VS pump and Intelichlor... Daily

[lordicarus]

Have had my pool for three years now. We had an Intellicenter installed with it. When they first wired it up, there was some issue with it where the pump would turn on for a few minutes and then turn off. Electrician "switched the relay" but I am not sure what exactly they meant by that.

Every time the pool pump schedule ends, I get a communication lost error for the pump and the swg.

I just stumbled upon this thread and am worried about what damage may have been done... And more importantly, how to fix it.

The thread : Chlorinator: Communication Lost

Anyone have any ideas about the initial assumption above that prompted the "changed relay"?

Anyone know what I should look for in my system (different than the other post) that would indicate what to do?

 

[Jimrahbe]

lord,

Your system was wired by an idiot...

I suspect that he has wired power to your pump 'through" the Pump/Filter relay.. This would be correct with on old single speed pump, but you have an IntelliFlo VS.. It should get constant AC power.

As a test, put the system into the Service mode, wait about a minute, and then go look at the pump.. Is the display blank, or does it show some type of RPM screen???

Show us several pics of the inside of your automation panel, with the shield removed so we can see all the relays and circuit breakers.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[HermanTX]

After you try what Jim suggested, please advise following.
Did the electrician “replace” the relay or did he “move” the pump to a different relay? This could make a world of difference.
When you take a photo - point out where does the pump electrical power connect to which RELAY. You should have 4-8 black RELAYs in the IntelliCenter.

The Relay is the black device where power goes to the LINE side of it and a device goes to the LOAD side of it. Except that a VS pump goes to the LINE SIDE with the POWER IN as Jim has pointed out.

 

[lordicarus]

When I put it onto service mode, I'm able to control the pump from the pump itself, which came in very handy before figuring out how to use feature circuits to have different pump speeds on schedule.

No idea what the electrician actually did, it was the summer of 2020, and I was already horribly confused by terminology he used when running the electric through my garage that made no sense (I worked for a carpenter for years when I was younger and had never heard the term "cat" used to describe blocking between floor joists.) All I remember is when the initial setup wasn't working properly, they told me a relay wasn't working properly so they switched it. I should have asked, but honestly, they seemed like idiots and I was already regretting using them for the pool build and wasn't thinking straight.

Attached are pictures. The only REALLY dumb thing that I noticed is the cut wires on the outlet in the bottom right. I didn't notice that the last time I opened the box and will be fixing it with some wire nuts for now and rewiring the outlet end of summer when I'm ready to fully power down the panel from the mains.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Based upon the pic what you say is impossible..

Your pump "appears" to be powered by the pump filter relay and your salt cell is getting constant AC power. Just exactly backwards from what should be happening.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Try this...

In Auto and Pool go look at the pump's display and see if it shows "Display Not Active.." It might take 30 seconds or so..

I am not certain what it going on.. Unless... The pump/filter relay is closed all the time.. Maybe the contacts are stuck shut..???

Do you have a voltmeter??

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[lordicarus]

I'm going to record a video tomorrow of exactly what happens to see if that helps make sense of it. Maybe I'm not explaining it properly.

When the pump is running on schedule, it says display not active on the pump. That I'm 100% certain.

When the pump isn't running, the Intellichlor is constantly flashing low flow. Also 100% certain of this.

Not sure what the pump screen displays, if anything, when the pump is not scheduled to run through the system.

When the pump schedule stops I get an alert for VS: Communication Lost. Followed immediately by an Intellichlor: No flow. Which then is followed by an Intellichlor: Communication Lost alert about an hour or two later. 100% certain.

When the schedule starts again or I manually start the pump with the power slider/button (in normal mode) the alerts immediately clear. 100% certain.

The one part I might be misremembering and will try tomorrow morning in the daylight is when I go into service mode, I'm almost positive I'm able to control the pump directly from the pump itself. That is what I did a week ago when I opened the pool... But maybe I unplugged the control wire from the pump... I don't think I did, because I haven't done that since the very first summer when I didn't understand how to get the pump to 3k RPM from the panel to use the pool vac.

Does that clear things up or make it even more confusing?

 

[HermanTX]

When the pump is running on schedule, it says display not active on the pump. That I'm 100% certain.

When the pump isn't running, the Intellichlor is constantly flashing low flow. Also 100% certain of this

I could not follow the wiring - too many red wires all tangled.

When the pump isn’t running and the SWCG flashes NO FLOW, this means that the SWCG is POWERED ON but no flow because the pump is off. There is the white and yellow wire coming from the SWCG transformer going to Filter RELAY (top left) and are connected to the constant power terminals #1 & #3.
What you want is for when the pump turns off, the power to the SWCG should also be cut so there will be no power and this is the safest hook up to have.

Per Jim’s review - then the pump power is connected to the Filter Pump terminals #2 and #4 which are only activiated by the schedule. When the schedule tells the pump to turn off, the RELAY cuts power to terminals #2 and #4 - this is verified that the pump turns off and immediately the Communication Lost is displayed.

So the fix may be simple to switch the wiring around - Moving the SWCG transformer wires to #2 and #4 and moving the pump wires from #2 and #4 to #1 and #3. Would like Jim to confirm this.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lord,

I would like you to run the tests that I asked and not answer what it did a week or two ago..

Test 1. The way it is wired, when you go into the Service mode, all the power is removed from the pump.. Do NOT do anything else.. Do NOT push the 'F' button or do anything that will try to turn the pump on. Just put the system in the Service mode.. What does the pump's display show?? (May take a 30 seconds to respond..)

Test 2. In Auto and Pool, go look at the pump's display and see if it shows "Display Not Active.." (It might take 30 seconds or so..)

There is also no doubt that your SWCG is wired to constant AC power..

Let me know what you find.. Herman's fix below will fix your problem, but I would like answers to my above tests, "Just to make sure" something is not screwed up..

So the fix may be simple to switch the wiring around - Moving the SWCG transformer wires to #2 and #4 and moving the pump wires from #2 and #4 to #1 and #3.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[lordicarus]

While I appreciate the help, it's not necessary to talk at me like I'm a child. I understood what you were asking. I was providing additional information, until tomorrow, since additional information often can shed more light when diagnosing issues in technical systems, something I do for a living.

More information is typically better than less information.

Also, I've already answered your Test 2 question.

That said, I already mentioned that I'll check tomorrow, in the daylight. If you are inclined to continue helping, I'll kindly accept it, otherwise I'll be on my way.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lord,

Sorry if my post came across in any unintended way... I was just trying to make sure we are both on the same page, at the same time. Troubleshooting over the Internet is often difficult, because what one party says, is not what the other party hears..

I want to make sure that any changes we make, don't screw anything else up.

I'm 95% confident, that the changes that Herman listed, will fix the com problems that you have been having..

You can run the tests and tell me your results, or go ahead and make the changes now.. Up to you.

Thanks, and sorry for any confusion in my wording..

Jim R.

 

[lordicarus]

I appreciate the clarification, and the assistance here, truly. Here are the answers to the questions, I just typed this out while testing. SWG stayed on throughout all of this as expected.

(Q1) In service mode, without turning on any circuits. Pump is completely off.

(Other Q) In service mode, when turning on the pump from the console, I have full access to the pump display. (Including this because I'm wondering if this is normal?)

(Q2) In auto, without a scheduled run or anything else. Pump stays off completely.

(Q2) In auto, when a schedule is running or manually powered, pump shows "display not active"

Thank you, Jim and Herman for your help with this. It is appreciated.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lord,

Thanks for the feedback..

The reason your pump has no power when in the Service mode, is because it is wired to the load side of the Pump/Filter relay. When in the Service mode, and you push the "F" button to turn on the pump, the Pump/Filter relay will close, which sends power to your pump. The pump should get constant AC power and should not be controled by the Pump/Filter relay.

Your salt cell should be wired to the load side of the Pump/Filter relay, as you only want the cell to get power, if the pump is being told to run.

I am 100% confident that if you do the following all your com problems will go away.

So the fix is simply to switch the wiring around on the Pump/Filter relay - Move the yellow and white SWCG transformer wires to #2 and #4 and move the pump wires from #2 and #4 to #1 and #3. You will end up with two red wires on the Line side of the relay #1 and #3. This will provide constant AC power to the pump. And the SWCG transformer wires will now be on the Load side of the relay #2 and #4, providing AC power to the SWCG only when the relay is closed.

Please let me know if you have any questions,

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[lordicarus]

Thank you, I greatly appreciate the help.

My only additional question is related to the feature circuits for pump speed. I only discovered the way to set this up last week, but it doesn't seem to actually work. The pump will not turn on if I schedule a pump speed feature circuit.

I'm wondering if this could be related to the wiring being flipped or is the pool circuit itself setup incorrectly? We seem to have consensus here that the builder's electrician was an idiot, so nothing would surprise me at this point.

Pictures from the pentair app are attached if that helps.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Lord,

It is related.. and here is why...

If you schedule a Feature Circuit all by itself, it will cause the pump to run at the speed assigned to that circuit. But... it will not close the Pump/Filter relay as the system is not in the Pool mode or Spa mode. Normally this is not an issue, because the pump has constant AC power, so when the RS-485 signal to run is sent to the pump, the pump runs just fine..

In your case, the pump is shut off because the Pump/Filter relay is not closed (you have to be in the Pool mode or Spa mode to close the relay). Since the pump has no power, it can't run, no matter what the RS-485 cable tell it to do..

When you have a SWCG, here is how you should set things up.. This is just an example of how it works... just adjust it for your needs

You should schedule your Pool Circuit to be on for the entire time you want to run the pump each day and at the slowest speed you ever want to run that still turns your SWCG on plus about 100 or so RPM.

Pool 8 am until 8 pm at 1500 RPM
Feature Circuit #1 9 am until 10 at 1800 RPM
Feature Circuit #2 1 pm until 4 pm at 2000 RPM..
Feature Circuit #1 2 pm until 5 pm.

The pump will start at 8 am and run at 1500
At 9 am the pump will increase speed to 1800 and then at 10 am the pump will go back to running at 1500
At 1 pm the pump will increase speed to 2000 rpm
At 2 pm the pump will continue to run at 2000 rpm, because the Feature #1 speed of 1800 is less than 2000
At 4 pm the speed will decrease to 1800 because Feature #2 has shut off and Feature #1 is still on.
At 5 pm the speed will decrease to 1500 as no feature circuits are on..
The pump will shut off at 8 pm

The key is that when the pump sees two or more speeds at the same time, it will always run the fastest one.

Please let me know if this makes sense,

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[lordicarus]

Hi Jim, just following up to say thank you. Haven't had a chance to fix the wiring inside yet, but I understand the detail you shared and appreciate it! Going to try to fix this next weekend.

 

[lordicarus]

Resurrecting this thread, Jim and Herman, thank you again for all of the help in the past, hope you see this. I swapped the wires before opening my pool yesterday, pump has power, no power to SWCG, as expected.

When I took it out of service mode, the pump didn't seem to be connecting, but I was pressed for time and just went back to service mode so I could make sure the pump stayed on since I was running out of daylight and wanted to shock, brush, and vacuum, so I could let it run overnight.

A couple questions:

1. When in service mode, the pump's screen should work like a normal non-IC connected pump, without needing to activate the pump circuit in service mode, is that correct? If I activate that circuit will it provide power to the SWCG since it's properly on the load side now?

2. When I take it out of service mode (going to play with it tomorrow), it's going to take probably 10-30 seconds for the pump communication to return, correct? At that point the pump should stop running (if it's still going manually) and return to "screen not active" on the pump? (Assuming there is no schedule that immediately takes over.)


Really appreciate your help in this community!

 

[Jimrahbe]

L,

You are correct.. it often takes a few seconds to change between Auto and the Service modes.

Any time you are in the Service mode the pump's display should show some type of rpm screen.. Meaning that the pump's control panel is controlling the pump.. The pump should not be running unless you push the "F" button, because in the Service mode nothing will automatically run..

Any time you are in Auto, the pump's display should show Display not active.. It does not matter if the pump is running or not... This means the EasyTouch is controlling the pump.

Jim R.

 

[lordicarus]

Well the pump is operating perfectly now with the IC in control. Thank you! SWCG isn't getting power at all now though, so need to trace wires and see what's going on. I was about to open the panel to look and it started to pour so I guess I'll be leaving a chlorine float in for now.

 

[Jimrahbe]

lord,

Your salt cell should be connected to the load side of the Pump/Filter relay.. This mean that the relay has to be closed before power will get to your salt cell's Power Center..

The Pump/Filter relay only closes when you are in the AUTO mode and either the Pool or Spa circuit needs to be on.

When you get the panel open, show me some pics of the relay in the upper left, which 'should' be the Pump/Filter relay.

Thanks,

Jim R.