Chlorination Quandary

[waterl0gged]

waterl0gged,

I thought I'd just mess with your comments a bit

99% of the issues people have with SWGs are self-inflicted because of poor water chemistry knowledge and maintenance. Many of us that own SWGs have had them working for years without fail. As for me personally, my SWG has operated flawlessly for 4 continuous years now (my pool is never closed). I need to do nothing more to my pool than check pH and add acid as needed (I haven't added a single bag of salt in over 3 years). Like you, testing FC levels is more for fun than anything else. I can go away on vacation for weeks at a time and never worry once about my chlorine levels.

As for cost, yes, they cost a lot up front. But, when you do the analysis, paying for an SWG is equivalent to buying all of the bleach a Stenner would use upfront. The economics of SWGs is equivalent to manual chlorination by any source (liquid or solid).

As for your Stenner, keep an eye on the check valve at the injection point. The check valves can get crusted up with salt and calcium scale to the point of getting plugged up. The check valve, like the tubes, are an annual PM item.

I'm not against Stenner pumps at all and I believe they have a place in the pool world. But for me and my environment, an SWG is the optimal solution.

OK, just a little bit out of context , lol . ;-)
I think if nothing else, I think Stenners are just the most reliable , easy to use auto chlorination system out there for the average pool owner .
Really had nothing bad to say about SWG's , but just pointing out how many "problems" there are about SWG's on the site. Stenners Rarely have problems from what I have seen .
Yes you do have the manual addition of the chlorine , but thats fair trade off in my book.

I just didnt want to go with a SWG because of harder installation, higher upfront costs , and ongoing costs of replacing cells . Looks like the average replacement timeline is 2-5 years. 5 years being a pretty good payback in initial cost ............under that , and closer to 2 ..........not so good.

I just went for the simpler , more reliable route !

 

[chiefwej]

I have a pool of very similar size. I can tell you this, I've been using a Hayward (Goldline) T-15 for over 12 years. If the whole system blew up right now, I whould have a new one ordered before the sun sets. Without a SWG, I wouldn't have a pool. The T-15 keeps up with my chlorine demands with no problem. In fact, it seldom runs above 70% setting at 8 hours run time. Salt dilution, just add salt right up to the upper limit for the SWG. That gives a lot of latitude, before you would get to low salt. Good Luck in whatever you choose.

 

[waterl0gged]

8 hours run time

This is kind of the kicker though ...............
8 hours run time a day is an awful lot. If you didn't have an Intelliflow , that would be a LOT of electric usage.
The average pool owner only has a single speed pump , which means it has to run a lot of hours for an SWG to keep up with FC demands. Thats a LOT of extra KW being used !
I am running my pump 3 hours a day, and could probably go less now that the heat pump is off most of the time (temp is holding its own) .
My pool is TFP crystal clear !
No reason any properly maintained pool needs to run the pump 8 hours a day . (except for SWG, or a pool heater maybe)

Have you had the same cell for 12 years ??? Thats got to be some kind of record for a SWG , right ?

 

[Philo]

In my area, all SWG's are on a 2 or variable speed pumps. Electricity is $.40 kwh!

Lots of people get 10,000 hours on the cell. I ran mine 3,540 hours last year (San Diego).

 

[chiefwej]

No, I've been through a couple of cells. The first=7 years, second about 5. I could cut my run time by going to 100%, but with a VS, run time is cheap. Besides, I like the idea of slowly metering out the dosage over the sunny portion of the day.

 

[L'anseMeg]

So, It will definitely be a SWCG in my future. I'm now on the fence between the AQE15 and the MOAS, as JoyfulNoise once put it, the Circupool RJ-60. Everything I've read points to the proverbial "Go big or go home". Can anyone give me better insight into the Circupool? I have always been a fan of Hayward but in this case I'm thinking shorter run time with my pump and longer life of cell. Do you really believe the AQR15 is sufficient for my size pool?

 

[JoyfulNoise]

So, It will definitely be a SWCG in my future. I'm now on the fence between the AQE15 and the MOAS, as JoyfulNoise once put it, the Circupool RJ-60. Everything I've read points to the proverbial "Go big or go home". Can anyone give me better insight into the Circupool? I have always been a fan of Hayward but in this case I'm thinking shorter run time with my pump and longer life of cell. Do you really believe the AQR15 is sufficient for my size pool?

I believe someone from Circupool has a user account here on TFP and those that have purchased them like them a lot. They are also, from what I know, good for doing standalone installations since they don't have to be tied to a particular automation system.

I would suggest that you consider replacing your pump as well. You don't necessarily need a VSP, but a 2-speed pump would bring you very significant energy savings. This is especially true if you are serious about the SWG - being able to run the SWG with the pump speed set to low will be a huge benefit to you. At the very least, you can typically keep your same wet-end on the pump you have now and just swap out the electric motor and impeller with a two-speed motor.

 

[Philo]

^^^ That's exactly what I did ^^^

A.O. Smith Pool Motor Square Flange 1 HP Full Rate Dual Speed w/ Digital Controller - B2982T - INYOPools.com

Full disclosure, I needed help putting it together.....

 

[L'anseMeg]

I just replaced my pump motor 3 months ago so it would be painful to do again but still doable. Besides, I've always ran my pumps 10-12 hours a day unless shocking/slamming or freeze warnings then it runs 24 hours. That is why I am considering the RJ-60, higher output at a lower percentage, without changing my pump run times all that much. According to the SWG runtime calculator, I came up with the following chart. This is not including any other parameters that may effect production. If all I'm having to replace is 2ppm of FC a day, then the Hayward is plenty sufficient. However, with the RJ-60 one should have more longevity. Brand loyalty is difficult to break. I have always been a fan/believer in Hayward, always been satisfied (except with that "Automatic-Skimmer Vac Plate w490r" $100 and it has never worked).

SWCG Brand/Model	Hayward AQR15​	Circupool RJ-60​
Pool size-Gallons	18,100​	18,100​	18,100​	18,100​
Avg 24hr FC Demand	2 PPM​	4 PPM​	2 PPM​	4 PPM​
24 hour SWCG FC Production	1.4​	1.4​	3.1​	3.1​
Runtime to replace PPM @ 100% output	5.2 hours​	10.4 hours​	2.3 hours​	4.7 hours​
Output % to replace PPM in 8 Hours	65%​	129%​	29%​	58%​
Output % to replace PPM in 10 Hours	52%​	104%​	23%​	47%​

 

[L'anseMeg]

Thanks for everyone's input and opinions. Last night I ordered the Hayward AQR15 from Amazon for $823, yep there's a deal going on right now. I will also be purchasing a VS Superpump to replace my new-old single speed Superpump. I could kick myself however, while I was sitting on the fence on whether or not to get the VS pump, I missed an excellent deal on the SP2603VSP. The deal at the time was $487...yes $487! I know! Well when I went back to Amazon to buy it.... price went back to $725. According to my calculations, based on my old run times and new planned run times with the AQR15, I will be saving $300+ per year in energy costs. There is also a rebate of $250 from my Energy provider, which only makes the decision to go VS even easier. I am sticking with the Superpump for ease of replacement. Also, I will keep my new-old pump as a back up in the event of a potential failure of the new pump. I am hesitent, however, to purchase the SP2603VSP due to recent reports of problems with the motor/circuitry? Any opinions on the 2603 or the 2602? Guess I'll add a post under pumps, filters, and plumbing. Thanks again for all of the help.

 

[jstephens1]

Just a FYI read the fine print but some rebates require using one of the energy companies certified installers

 

[pabeader]

One thing that I can offer, is to get a surge protector for your VSP controller. I have no direct experience but I have read more than a few folks say that. Either they are happy they did, or they wish they had. Enough so that when I switch to a VSP, I will for sure have one on my system.

 

[chiefwej]

Almost every premature failure of a VS pump is due to drive controller. In reality a VS pump is a high draw motor and a computer, connected together and fed through a very long power lead. Do you see a potential problem there?

When adding a VS pump, I strongly suggest whole house surge protection. I added a larger one at my main house panel and a small one at my pool panel. The VS pumps are very susceptible to damage from power surges. That's the most common cause of any failure. It cost me less than $150 for both surge protectors and a couple hours to install.

https://smile.amazon.com/Eaton-CHSPT2ULTRA-Surge-Protection-3Rd/dp/B01AQAKRSS/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1501016950&sr=8-2&keywords=eaton+whole+house+surge+protector

https://smile.amazon.com/Square-Schneider-Electric-SDSA1175-Protective/dp/B0052DMIUK/ref=sr_1_14?ie=UTF8&qid=1501017269&sr=8-14&keywords=whole+house+surge+protector

 

[L'anseMeg]

UPDATE:

OK, I just placed my order for the Hayward Superpump SP2602VSP. It just made sense due to the ease of swapping it out. Thanks to AnAltruist and davidc18 for filling me in on their first hand experience. I purchased it on Amazon and did get the 3 year extended warranty as well as the Square D surge protector (thanks chief). Once I get everything installed next week I could maybe put a review in the "pumps" section and update it from time to time. I think that would be beneficial and possibly appreciated by someone shopping for a pump down the road.

 

[waterl0gged]

UPDATE:

OK, I just placed my order for the Hayward Superpump SP2602VSP. It just made sense due to the ease of swapping it out. Thanks to AnAltruist and davidc18 for filling me in on their first hand experience. I purchased it on Amazon and did get the 3 year extended warranty as well as the Square D surge protector (thanks chief). Once I get everything installed next week I could maybe put a review in the "pumps" section and update it from time to time. I think that would be beneficial and possibly appreciated by someone shopping for a pump down the road.

Ok ............just wondering .

How much $$$ will you have invested in an SWG , a VS Pump and extra parts needed to install a SWG chlorinating system ?

I guess it all comes down to $$$ spent vs convenience factor of not lugging liquid chlorine around ? I can see that .

I have about $200 - $300 invested in my Stenner system , plus the ongoing and never ending expense of liquid chlorine , and lugging that goes with it.
I am using approx 5 gallons of 8.25% bleach a week @ 2.96 a bottle. Dialing it in with the Stenner, and its getting to be less than 5 gallons a week lately.
We have about a 4 month swimming season (June - Sept) , and spend roughly $250. a year (our 4 month pool season) for chlorine on the high side.

Just trying to see how close a SWG system with VS pump add on , factors in against a Stenner system for the long haul (and $$$) .
Kind of a pay me now or pay me later type of thing I guess .........

Good luck with the new system .........Enjoy !!!

(jealous of you not having to lug around liquid chlorine !, lol )

 

[JoyfulNoise]

If you have to buy the VSP and SWG, the pay back time will likely exceed the usable life of either of those components. The initial investment is basically a sunk-cost that you'll not likely recover.

However, going forward, the cost of the operation of the SWG and pump will be equivalent to the cost of purchasing chlorine over the same time period. With the SWG you're just paying for all of the chlorine you generate up front.

See here - Economics of Saltwater Chlorine Generators

 

[chiefwej]

Once the initial investment is made in the SWG, the cost of chlorine going forward is the cost of replacement cells divided by their life span. So in my case cells cost about $425 and last about 6 years. $425/6 = $70 per year chlorine cost. It's not necessary that you have a VS pump with a SWG. I didn't for the first ten years.

With a VS pump unless your electricity rate is very high, it takes a very long time to recover your investment. But, in my case, if it didn't save me a dime, I would still have one. With infloor cleaning, a spa, solar heating, and a SWG, the pump allows me to tailor a speed and schedule for each task that is the most efficient and effective. And it's so quiet you sometimes have to check to be sure it's running.

 

[L'anseMeg]

Ok ............just wondering .

How much $$$ will you have invested in an SWG , a VS Pump and extra parts needed to install a SWG chlorinating system ?

OK, I'll bite...
Let me first start by saying this..."Happy Wife, Happy Life" . Now, the cost of the actual chlorination had nothing to do with my conversion to SWCG. It is ALL about the convenience for my wife when I am away. As stated earlier, I work away 6 months out of the year (14 days on/14 days off) so my wife is left with EVERYTHING when I am away, and yes, if it can go wrong it has gone wrong...believe me. I fully believe its gonna be a wash if not cheaper in the long run for ME and my SWCG. Now onto the VS pump, I have done my homework and, honestly, I have no idea why they are still manufacturing single speed pumps. I paid $668.00 for the VS pump, $76.00 for an additional 3 years peace of mind (so that's 4 years of warranty). I will receive $250.00 rebate from my energy provider, so that's a balance of $418.00 on the pump, add the ext warranty to that = $494.00. I will be saving a minimum of $460.00 per year, based on minimal usage alone. Soooooo, my pump will pay for itself (savings in electrical costs) in 13 months of service. Sooooo in essence, If I am saving $460 a year in electrical costs by switching to a VS pump to operate my SWCG ($832 total), then in 3 years time I will recoupe my money and hopefully be producing chlorine for another 3-5 years after that....literally for free. Oh, and to buy another salt cell is $450.00 so it is, from that point, no more money out of my pocket because the savings are paying for it. All that said, I will be keeping a couple of gallons of liquid chlorine on hand for dosing before heavy swimmer loads or after a 2 inch thunderstorm. My pump runs for 12 months out of the year (of course a couple of those months are at reduced runtime), Oh, and our swimming season (May-Decemberish) can literally be between 6-9 months long. I've been in my pool in December at times...just sayin .

Ok, so this thread is kinda ending sooo not in the way I had hoped. I truly wanted to make an informed decision and strongly feel that because of your input, and everyone else on TFP, I have made the best decision for ME and MY family. Currently, your stenner is the best route for you. Hopefully, 6 months to a year from now, I'm still excited about my SWCG and VS pump. Time will tell.

Peace!>>>dropping the mic. LOL

 

[waterl0gged]

OK, I'll bite...
Let me first start by saying this..."Happy Wife, Happy Life" . Now, the cost of the actual chlorination had nothing to do with my conversion to SWCG. It is ALL about the convenience for my wife when I am away. As stated earlier, I work away 6 months out of the year (14 days on/14 days off) so my wife is left with EVERYTHING when I am away, and yes, if it can go wrong it has gone wrong...believe me. I fully believe its gonna be a wash if not cheaper in the long run for ME and my SWCG. Now onto the VS pump, I have done my homework and, honestly, I have no idea why they are still manufacturing single speed pumps. I paid $668.00 for the VS pump, $76.00 for an additional 3 years peace of mind (so that's 4 years of warranty). I will receive $250.00 rebate from my energy provider, so that's a balance of $418.00 on the pump, add the ext warranty to that = $494.00. I will be saving a minimum of $460.00 per year, based on minimal usage alone. Soooooo, my pump will pay for itself (savings in electrical costs) in 13 months of service. Sooooo in essence, If I am saving $460 a year in electrical costs by switching to a VS pump to operate my SWCG ($832 total), then in 3 years time I will recoupe my money and hopefully be producing chlorine for another 3-5 years after that....literally for free. Oh, and to buy another salt cell is $450.00 so it is, from that point, no more money out of my pocket because the savings are paying for it. All that said, I will be keeping a couple of gallons of liquid chlorine on hand for dosing before heavy swimmer loads or after a 2 inch thunderstorm. My pump runs for 12 months out of the year (of course a couple of those months are at reduced runtime), Oh, and our swimming season (May-Decemberish) can literally be between 6-9 months long. I've been in my pool in December at times...just sayin .

Ok, so this thread is kinda ending sooo not in the way I had hoped. I truly wanted to make an informed decision and strongly feel that because of your input, and everyone else on TFP, I have made the best decision for ME and MY family. Currently, your stenner is the best route for you. Hopefully, 6 months to a year from now, I'm still excited about my SWCG and VS pump. Time will tell.

Peace!>>>dropping the mic. LOL

No , really .......... I think you made great decision for what you are trying to accomplish ! Please don't take what I was asking the wrong way .
If anything , I was knocking the lugging around chlorine thing asscociated with the stenner !

I am actually considering changing out to a VS pump , maybe next year .........and more likely a 2 speed pump maybe. I would love to cut out some electrical costs associated with running my single speed pump. So, maybe a SWG could be in my future .
So....... was just wondering, kind of what you will have involved in the whole system since, I cant really go with SWG , because of my Single speed pump, and KWH .

Dont get me wrong, my Stenner is working steller ...............but I secretly would really like to see what a SWG is all about.

Buying shopping carts full of Bleach in Walmart sometimes gets some funny looks , lol .


Again , Enjoy your new system ...........Good Choice !

 

[planoattorney]

Silly question perhaps, but I think I have noticed a pattern: pumps and auto-chlorination systems seem to be more popular in the less sunny areas and SWG seem to have a loyal following in the sunshine states. Is that just my errant assessment?

To get back on topic - I am in north Texas (DFW area) so lots of sun. Rainey this year, but we all know how the weather can and will just screw with our chemistry plans. So, I am still on the fence about a SWG. A few years ago, we replaced the pump with a high-efficiency pump. I am pretty sure it is single speed but it does not cost too much to run and I run it 8 hours per day. Will this be enough to keep a SWG happy with a 15K pool, direct sun, no shade?

Also, something in this thread caught my attention - what chores come with a SWG? With chlorine, I have to add every day. With a Stenner or other auto-chlorination system, someone has to check and fill the reservoir weekly I presume. How often does salt have to be added with a SWG? Does salt degrade or is it like CYA, once there it is there until it is flushed or dumped? Do I have to add something to my test kit to check for salt?