CH Increasing + White Spots on Plaster

LMK17

Active member
May 4, 2018
42
Central Texas
I am having two issues, which I suspect are related. The first is that my CH keeps trending upward. The second issue is that I have just noticed white spots forming on the plaster. Normally I’d say the answer is obvious and the spots are calcium nodules, but I don’t think it’s as straightforward as that.

First, the CH levels. One year ago, my CH was holding between 850-900. This year, I’m up around 1050. We use softened water to top off the pool, and I confirmed that the fill water is CH 0. The last time that we did even a partial drain & refill was July 2022, when the pool was replastered. Following the start up procedure at that time, our CH was about 500, and it has been steadily increasing since. I can certainly do a partial drain & refill, but I am befuddled as to how the CH is increasing when the refill water is soft? We are on a well, and I suppose it is possible that metals in the well water are somehow factoring into the picture? The pool is covered and screened, so evaporation is somewhat less than a “typical” pool in the sun, and very little “stuff” tends to fall into the water. The one exception is that the flagstone coping has been flaking, and small amounts of flagstone dust do get into the pool. I’m not sure if the stone could be contributing to our CH? The water is crystal clear, and I generally maintain a good CSI.

Secondly, I just noticed about a dozen small white spots on the plaster. They are on the floor and on the steps. Unlike calcium nodules, though, these spots seem to be totally flat or possibly even slightly depressed. They also developed very suddenly. Nothing has changed with the pool management. The only change is that this year we switched from a DIY solar heater to a Heliocol solar heater, but I can’t imagine that has anything to do with it. Other than very occasional CYA additions, all that we add to the pool are 10% bleach & muriatic acid. Beyond that, we just try and do a good job with vacuuming, cleaning the filter, and brushing every week or two.

I’d really appreciate any help with figuring out what’s going on. I’m finding the whole thing- especially these new white spots— to be pretty alarming.

Here’re some additional details that might be helpful:
Pool Math records: PoolMath Logs
Plaster: Finest Finish Laguna Microfusion
Replaster date: July 20, 2022
Start-Up Procedure: 28 day cure, NPT start up procedure
Test Kit: Taylor 2006

IMG_8173.jpegIMG_8174.jpegIMG_8179.jpeg
 
What I see in your logs are what look to me like large additions of LC and MA which indicates that you aren't testing often enough to avoid large additions. This would cause your actual conditions (PH) to drop too low to avoid possible etching of the plaster. This is just my views and I may not realize how little you're actually putting in, but I don't think I'm wrong. How old are your reagents? They might need to be replaced for better accuracy.
 
What I see in your logs are what look to me like large additions of LC and MA which indicates that you aren't testing often enough to avoid large additions. This would cause your actual conditions (PH) to drop too low to avoid possible etching of the plaster. This is just my views and I may not realize how little you're actually putting in, but I don't think I'm wrong. How old are your reagents? They might need to be replaced for better accuracy.

Fair point. I try and test about once a week, and when I’m really on the ball I add smaller amounts of acid & bleach every other day. But I’m typically more behind on pool care that I would like to be. When I add chemicals, a typical amount for bleach is about 32 oz (outside of a SLAM) and 16-32 oz muriatic acid.

I replace reagents as they reach their expiration dates. None of the reagents are expired.

Help me understand your reasoning when it comes to the idea of dropping my pH too low. I aim for a CSI in range, rather than focusing too much on any one parameter. I usually set my target pH to 7, after checking that my CSI will respond favorably. Although I realize 7 is outside of the Pool Math recommended range, it doesn’t hurt my CSI, plus I’m constantly battling a rising pH. If I drop to pH 7, it’s going to be back up to 8 within a couple days, and in fact, my pH spends far more time at 8 than at 7. My understanding is that a pH of 7 for a short period of time should not be damaging to plaster, especially when the overall balance (CSI) is good?

I understand that adding larger amounts of muriatic acid is going to drop the pH more quickly, but I don’t see how it’s going to drop the pH lower than the calculations suggest?
 
Could be Calcium Nodules - not a good sign.

 
A PH in the 7s is fine but I'm wondering if your large MA additions take it below 7 at times. We advise to only adjust PH by .2 at the most before testing again. But then I forgot that you also said your CH is sky high again. Even though your fill water is 0 CH from your softener, how often does the softener go with less and less softening before it regenerates? The longer it goes and as you might start to feel less softened water in the home you could be then having the CH go higher than you think which would add CH to your fill water.
 
Could be Calcium Nodules - not a good sign.


What I’m seeing is totally flat (or even slightly depressed- hard to tell with the surrounding aggregate). Nodules are always raised, right? Also, would several nodules appear practically overnight?
 
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A PH in the 7s is fine but I'm wondering if your large MA additions take it below 7 at times. We advise to only adjust PH by .2 at the most before testing again. But then I forgot that you also said your CH is sky high again. Even though your fill water is 0 CH from your softener, how often does the softener go with less and less softening before it regenerates? The longer it goes and as you might start to feel less softened water in the home you could be then having the CH go higher than you think which would add CH to your fill water.

I really don’t think I’m tanking my pH. I have the Pool Math calculations dialed in pretty well.

BUT let’s suppose I am dropping below 7. Even if that’s the case, I’m popping back up to a pH of 8 within days. For example, on May 10 my pH was 8. I set my target to 7 and accordingly added 41 oz MA that evening. When I tested again on May 13, I was back to pH 7.8. I just don’t see how a low pH is my problem. Even IF it does drop too low occasionally (again, I doubt that), it’s not staying there for any length of time at all. But please correct me if I’m wrong.

Too, we have some hard water deposits at the water line. That’s far more consistent with a high CH/high pH than with a low pH.

We keep the softener topped off with salt, and it regenerates nightly. It seems to do a fine job of softening the water, even on pool refill days. The water always feels soft, unless I happen to be up late and try to shower during a regeneration cycle, at which point I notice that immediately. I don’t think a lack of soft water is a problem.

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Could be Calcium Nodules - not a good sign.

Hmm. I was mistaken about the nature of calcium nodules- I was thinking they would be related to water chemistry issues, but now I understand they are not. Thanks for the resource!

Admittedly, what I’m seeing does look similar to some of the photos in that thread, BUT the white “spots” in my pool are definitely not raised, so I’m still unsure what I am dealing with.

So another obvious, easy answer would be that I’m seeing scale deposits. These “things” on the pool floor look quite similar to the deposits at my waterline. But then I’m seeing on here that scale tends to form a uniform crust, and that’s for sure not what’s going on in my pool.

I do worry about plastering issues. Granted, I don’t have any evidence that the plaster was done poorly- It’s just my worst case scenario fear. Specifically, I’m wondering if something in the plaster could be leeching into the water, causing the CH to rise, and weakening the plaster. I am quite certain that I’m not adding calcium to the water when I refill. (I could be adding other stuff- metals and the like- with the well water, but the softener seems to take care of calcium.)

If I can rule out plaster problems, then I feel pretty good just doing a partial drain & refill and chalking up the white spots to CH issues. I just don’t want to overlook a bigger problem.
 
We advise to only adjust PH by .2 at the most before testing again.

More like don't reduce pH by more than 0.4 in one addition of acid.

This is because PoolMath calculations for the amount of acid required gets further from reality the larger the pH change.
 
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, BUT the white “spots” in my pool are definitely not raised, so I’m still unsure what I am dealing with.




So another obvious, easy answer would be that I’m seeing scale deposits. These “things” on the pool floor look quite similar to the deposits at my waterline. But then I’m seeing on here that scale tends to form a uniform crust, and that’s for sure not what’s going on in my pool.
Calcium scaling of surfaces and waterline scaling are two very different problems with different causes..


 
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What is the CH of your fill water? Check it before any water softener. I see an entry in PoolMath with fill CH 0 - which is highly unlikely out of an unsoftened tap in Texas.

With a CH over 900+, you will have a difficult time manging your CSI - and minimizing calcium scaling.
Best to drain and refill to get your CH down to around 300.
Keeping your CSI between 0.00 and -0.30 (negative 0.30) will minimize scaling. You may still get a white-ish buildup at the water line - but this is do to evaporation and can happen even at low CH levels.

Keeping up on testing - at least every other day as minimum - will help keep pool chemistry in check.

Post results for pH, TA and CH of your (unsoftened) fill water.
 




Calcium scaling of surfaces and waterline scaling are two very different problems with different causes..



OK, that was useful AND info overload. HA!

I want to make sure I’m understanding all this info correctly and using the proper terms.

1. A strong possibility is that I am seeing “plaster spotting” due to an improper amount of calcium chloride dehydrate (greater than 2%) being added to the plaster mix at the re-plaster.
*Evidence for this is that my “spots” are smooth to the touch and only affect the plaster, not the exposed aggregate
* Could this problem have developed at this point? My plaster is nearly 3 years old now, and I’m seeing that the problem usually takes “several months” to show up.
* The only way to prove this is the issue would be to take a plaster sample and have it tested.
* This issue could cause my rising CH, as the affected areas are porous and weak (and could leech calcium?)

2. What I am seeing at the water line is more likely efflorescence than waterline scale.
*Evidence for this is that it seems to affect the grout between the tiles and not the tiles themselves & it is easily removed using some MA or vinegar.

Oh, boy. Am I understanding this correctly?
 
What is the CH of your fill water? Check it before any water softener. I see an entry in PoolMath with fill CH 0 - which is highly unlikely out of an unsoftened tap in Texas.

With a CH over 900+, you will have a difficult time manging your CSI - and minimizing calcium scaling.
Best to drain and refill to get your CH down to around 300.
Keeping your CSI between 0.00 and -0.30 (negative 0.30) will minimize scaling. You may still get a white-ish buildup at the water line - but this is do to evaporation and can happen even at low CH levels.

Keeping up on testing - at least every other day as minimum - will help keep pool chemistry in check.

Post results for pH, TA and CH of your (unsoftened) fill water.

My re-fill water is off a softened hose bib. I am fully confident in the CH 0 reading. The chemistries for the un-softened water will be of use in the case that I drain & refill, but I think they’re irrelevant to my current issues, as I haven’t added any hard water to the pool in nearly 3 years.

But yeah, I would do well to retest more often than I do now. I’m also fine with a partial drain/refill, although some info I’m getting here seems to suggest my problem may be related to the plaster itself, if I’m understanding everything correctly.
 
OK, new development.

I noticed that one of the “spots” on the pool steps seemed for sure to be a depression in the plaster. And out of curiosity, I took a pumice stone to a couple of other spots that I could reach from the pool deck. Not only did the spots not rub off with the pumice stone, but it actually turns out that every one that I could reach turned out to be a dimple/depression in the plaster. (I think there was a very light crust or a deposit over the spots, which the stone took off very quickly.) The underlying surface does seem to be a bit soft or chalky, but it’s hard to gauge that for sure when it’s under water.

Does this strengthen the argument for white spotting? The plaster is 34 months old at this point. Would a plaster mix problem have shown up before now?
 
My re-fill water is off a softened hose bib. I am fully confident in the CH 0 reading. The chemistries for the un-softened water will be of use in the case that I drain & refill, but I think they’re irrelevant to my current issues, as I haven’t added any hard water to the pool in nearly 3 years.

But yeah, I would do well to retest more often than I do now. I’m also fine with a partial drain/refill, although some info I’m getting here seems to suggest my problem may be related to the plaster itself, if I’m understanding everything correctly.
Your CH got to 1050 somehow. Usually that is by replacing evaporated water with new water with at least some CH in it.
Looking back 7-8 months in your PoolMath logs shows a very slight CH increase. This is really nothing to worry about as sometimes even the best of softeners will output a little CH or the autofill ran while the softener was regenerating.

My asking for the unsoftened tap water numbers was to see abut how much you might need to drain to get your Ch numbers down to 300-ish. With the lower CH, you can run a higher pH (7.8-8.0) and still have a slightly negative CSI number. Reducing the current CH will make managing your water chemistry easier as you won't need to keep pushing pH down to kepp CSI in check.
So what is the pH, TA and CH of your unsoftened tap water?

When you do a drain/refill (even more than about 1000-1500 gallon partial drain/refill) most softeners can't keep up with the large demand and you will be using unsoftened water for most of the refill.

While there may be other issues, getting the CH under control will help your overall chemistry and ease of maintenance.

Tell us a bit more about your pool by filling out your signature with info on your pool, all pool equipment (include manufacturers and model numbers) and test kit info. Also add that you use soft water for your autofill.
 
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Your CH got to 1050 somehow. Usually that is by replacing evaporated water with new water with at least some CH in it.
Looking back 7-8 months in your PoolMath logs shows a very slight CH increase. This is really nothing to worry about as sometimes even the best of softeners will output a little CH or the autofill ran while the softener was regenerating.

My asking for the unsoftened tap water numbers was to see abut how much you might need to drain to get your Ch numbers down to 300-ish. With the lower CH, you can run a higher pH (7.8-8.0) and still have a slightly negative CSI number. Reducing the current CH will make managing your water chemistry easier as you won't need to keep pushing pH down to kepp CSI in check.
So what is the pH, TA and CH of your unsoftened tap water?

When you do a drain/refill (even more than about 1000-1500 gallon partial drain/refill) most softeners can't keep up with the large demand and you will be using unsoftened water for most of the refill.

While there may be other issues, getting the CH under control will help your overall chemistry and ease of maintenance.

Tell us a bit more about your pool by filling out your signature with info on your pool, all pool equipment (include manufacturers and model numbers) and test kit info. Also add that you use soft water for your autofill.

Got it, thanks.

At the well head (Carrizo-Wilcox aquifer, Guadalupe Co, TX), we’ve got:
PH 8.0
TA 370
CH 290

The fill water is off a filtered, softened hose bib. Here we have:
PH 7.6
TA 360
CH 0

Just as a note, I did top off the pool this morning, and as you can see, the water this evening is still soft without an extra regeneration cycle. I top off the pool at least once a week, often more, and try to keep the water levels within about 1”-2” at all times.

I updated my signature, too. It’s a very simple set up. There’s no automation other than the SolarTouch for the booster pump. My filter pump is just operated via an on/off switch for the past several months. No autofill or any other fancy monitoring/automation.
 
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I tried calling the pool contractor twice today, starting before lunch. Both times, a very cheerful receptionist answered on the first ring, but I hit a snag when the receptionist took my info & transferred me to a manager. The first time I waited on hold for 15 min to no avail, and the second time I left my info for a call back, but that was hours ago, the store is closed for the day, and- big shock- no one called me back. I guess I’m in for a bit of a slog with them, which really isn’t a shock because we had some issues during the remodel, and I was hoping not to have to deal with them again. I’ve already gotten the “these are tough times to work in” and “it’s hard to find good help” spiels.

I’ve been reading all the resources y’all posted, and I’m quite confident that the spots in my plaster are not something that we caused. I’m sure the contractor will try to say it was us, though. So I’m looking for some tips on how to handle the upcoming negotiations.

1. Is there any reasonable scenario in which WE could have caused the white depressions/pits in our plaster, considering our PoolMath records? PoolMath Logs

2. The plasterer gave us a 3 year delamination warranty. Is this something that should be covered under that?

3. I know that NPT has very strict guidelines for maintaining plaster (specifically not allowing a negative LSI EVER)- Suppose the contractor looks at my PoolMath records and claims that I’ve messed up the plaster because my LSI has very occasionally been negative. How should I respond? I know that my chemistries have been just fine and that even on the occasions they’ve dropped below 0, they have haven’t been negative enough or kept there long enough to cause problems, but I don’t have a good way of “convincing” the contractor of all that.

4. Any other tips for dealing with a less than willing contractor?
 

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