Can't figure out problem with filter, DE and air in return

Bandit5

0
Bronze Supporter
Jul 19, 2014
130
Philadelphia, PA
At the beginning of the swimming season I replaced some of by broken grids with this: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001E06892/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 as it seemed like the best value. Everything worked perfectly for several months until about mid-July. All of a sudden we started seeing bubbles in the return jets. I backwashed and thoroughly cleaned the grids and manifold, but it didn't go away. I installed my stenner pump and replaced a few lines of plumbing going into the multiport valve thinking there was an air leak, but besides having chlorine inject into the return line, everything stayed the same.

A few weeks ago, the bubbles got worse and we started to see the return hiccuping and blowing a bit of DE into the pool each time. We can fix this for only a few minutes at a time by bleeding the air out of the filter. But no more than 10 minutes later, we see air and DE coming out of the returns. Now, I didn't like the air bleed design on the manifold that came with the new grids, so I bought this and put it on a few days ago: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0055EMBQW/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1 It seemed like a much better design. I installed it, made sure everything was tight and it looked like all was solved. Until the pump came back on several hours later and we saw the same bubbles and DE coming back into the returns. Bleeding the filter still only solved this for a few minutes. Figuring a suction side air leak was letting air into the filter, I took the filter and pump apart and thoroughly cleaned, dried, and applied Super Lube: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000XBH9HI/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o05_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 to the o-ring on the filter housing, the pump basket lid o-ring, and even the seal on the pump basket drain, which I then tightened securely with a ratchet. I immediately saw improvement with the flow int he pump basket. It was completely full of water and I could only see a small bubble at the top of the lid. I felt good for an hour or so, until I started seeing more bubble and DE shooting back into the pool. The last step I took only an hour ago was to take apart the filter and put the original manifold back on, figuring that the higher air bleed could help. It didn't. I still have the same problem.

I did a bit of searching thinking that an auto-bleeder could potentially solve this problem, and I saw some old threads of people trying to adapt one to work with the Pentair, but I didn't find any reports of success. I am nearly out of ideas, but before I go any further, I want to solicit the ideas of people with more experience on this forum.

My two thoughts were the pump is letting air in (it is old) or that it was the multiport valve (I don;t have a reason to suspect it, but I want to replace it with the one made for 2" PVC instead of using 1.5" threaded to 2" adapters.

Does anyone have any ideas? I feel like I am losing my mind and my wife is not pleased with how much time I spending on the pool when we aren't even swimming.
 
Is it possible to get air in from the pump after the basket?
Not with the pump running.

The air accumulating in your filter is coming somewhere from the suction side of your system. Can you see bubbles passing through the pump basket?

Working on your filter and pump will not help......that is the pressure side of your system. Pump running, air is introduced only from the suction side (from the skimmer(s) to the pump)
 
In the past, there was same air in the filter, but it appeared to running normally. However, after my recent changes, most likely related to torquing down the pump drain plug, the filter basket looks (for lack of a better word) perfect. It is a solid stream of water with just a very small single bubble at the top which is the only evidence to show it is moving. I have the jandy valve adjusted so as to not create a vortex in the skimmer. It is for these reasons that I am suspecting a leak between the pump and the filter allowing air into the system. An article I read indicated that a leak in the motor shaft seal could be a possible cause. This is why i am thinking pump. I also do not like the plumbing between the pump and the multiport valve (there is a coupler in the middle of the run that has a slight angle to it) so I may replace that one night. I know it is frustrating if I keep reporting that everything is fine. I will try to take a video soon to see if that can help clarify. I'm not very experienced with the equipment side of the pool.
 
Does your pump lose prime after being off for some period of time? I too had a couple of small bubbles under the lid but after a good cleaning it showed something completely different. See my post from this weekend.

Pump Losing Prime - Issue found

It took me a bit to understand the concept but air can only enter via the suction side as the pump is pulling the water (and air in the case of a leak). The output side of the pump is pushing (water) and a leak here would be evident with dripping water.
 
Yes, but not very much. When it is off for a hours, the water slowly goes back down. It takes between 5-15 seconds for it fill up again before it is done priming and moves water out of the returns. I only have one joint that is above ground that I can check. I'll do that tonight.
 
You should stop thinking that an air leak (pump running) can occur on the pressure side of your system.....that's not how it works. If you have an air leak in your system with the pump running, oit is occurring somewhere between the skimmer and the impeller.

Twice now you have mentioned "torquing down" the pump basket drain plug. Those plugs should be hand tightened plus about a quarter to a half turn.....nothing more.

If you have stripped those threads, that could be the source of the air leak as the pump basket is on the suction side

What is your psi? I am concerned you have choked down the intake to prevent a whirlpool in the skimmer. That's not a good plan. Raise the water level in your pool if you have a vortex in the skimmer
 
You should stop thinking that an air leak (pump running) can occur on the pressure side of your system.....that's not how it works. If you have an air leak in your system with the pump running, oit is occurring somewhere between the skimmer and the impeller.

Twice now you have mentioned "torquing down" the pump basket drain plug. Those plugs should be hand tightened plus about a quarter to a half turn.....nothing more.

If you have stripped those threads, that could be the source of the air leak as the pump basket is on the suction side

What is your psi? I am concerned you have choked down the intake to prevent a whirlpool in the skimmer. That's not a good plan. Raise the water level in your pool if you have a vortex in the skimmer

I have given up on the pressure side. Though I am always looking for an excuse to replace that multiport to the correct size...

Yes, I did torque that screw down and it actually did help with the flow in the pump basket. But it did not solve the issue. I didn't strip the threads, but I will be much gentler when I put it back next time.

My pressure gauge reads 15psi clean. I have one bottom drain and one skimmer with a single Jandy valve that adjusts how much is drawn from each. I have the water level just above the indicator mark on the skimmer plate which seems to work well. If I have the jandy valve set to 100% skimmer and 0% drain, then it can cause a vortex and suck in air. I adjust it to a little past where this doesn't happen, which usually ends up at 75% skimmer and 25% drain.

So if the problem is before the pump then I am looking at the jandy valve and the elbows that lead to the main drain and the skimmer. I guess I'll test those tonight.
 
That all sounds pretty good. I was concerned you were restricting the overall flow into the pump......you are simply selecting the percentages of skimmer/drain....perfectly OK.

Your psi is perhaps just a little higher than I would expect but nothing to be concerned about.

A pic of your circulatory system may help.

So, if you are getting air in the system, causing you to bleed the filter from time to time, we know that leak is on the suction side.

 

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I'm still working on this... sort of. The DE in the pool is just backflowing in from the drain and skimmer when the pump loses prime while I was messing with the multiport. I just vacuumed it back up.

As for the air bubbles, it continued to get worse. I filmed a syringe with pvc cement and meticulously sealed all of the above ground joints on the suction side. It was just two elbows and a Jandy valve. I made sure it was air tight all around but it did not stop the air bubbles. I tried setting the jandy valve to 100% skimmer and then 100% main drain. The bubbles did not change.

At this point, I am figuring it is a seal inside the pump. It may be my imagination, but I think the bubbles actually got worse while I was doing all of this. I ordered a seal kit for my pump.

Does this sound like I am on the right track? Am I missing anything?
 
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