Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed?

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Also:

:idea: With the "Spillover" closed completely; no bubbles anywhere and the
pump water is different. SEEMS about 1-2 inches below lid with "some" small
bubbling. The "churning" is evident from I believe the force, but not "bubbly-churning"

When I first bleed the filter, ANYTIME, there is a NO WATER release..then solid water.
Unless the "pause" is normal, there is a lot of air entering. [It is all or nothing, no spurting]

MOST IMPORTANT TO ME RIGHT NOW [NOT INCLUDING THE HEATER...its coming]

I am convinced beyond a doubt that a blockage exists in the main drain. If the skimmer valve is
closed completely, the vortex starts. I have brushed dirt over the top of the main drain and the
various pop-ups blow the dirt other directions....no suction at all that I can see.

So....that is where I am

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Also:

:idea: With the "Spillover" closed completely; no bubbles anywhere and the
pump water is different. SEEMS about 1-2 inches below lid with "some" small
bubbling. The "churning" is evident from I believe the force, but not "bubbly-churning"

The water should FILL the pump basket, 1-2 inches below the lid does not seem right, that would put the water level near the pipe input I would think.

When I first bleed the filter, ANYTIME, there is a NO WATER release..then solid water.
Unless the "pause" is normal, there is a lot of air entering. [It is all or nothing, no spurting]

If the system is closed (as it should be), after purging the air out of the filter once, you should not have to do it again. You should just get water right away. So, if there is always air coming out of the filter at first, then there is a leak somewhere.

I am convinced beyond a doubt that a blockage exists in the main drain. If the skimmer valve is
closed completely, the vortex starts. I have brushed dirt over the top of the main drain and the
various pop-ups blow the dirt other directions....no suction at all that I can see.

You are closing the skimmer by the pump, thus forcing all of the water to be pulled from the "floor" correct? Where is this vortex you mention?

Some of the recommended ways in the forums to clear blockages is to force water backward through the pipe. You would probably want to remove the main drain lids and then maybe pull apart the floor shutoff valve and put a water hose down it (wrapping a wet towel around the hose to try to seal the top). This would then force water out of the drain hopefully pushing out the obstruction).

Side Note:
Sometimes I am getting confused which valves your are changing. It might be good to select one circuit and ensure it is 100% working before testing the next circuit. Seems like there are still a few issues and you need to isolate them to figure out how to fix each of them.

Here is what I think you still have to deal with (although I may be forgetting something):
1. Main drain clogged
2. Air entering Pump and then into filter (suction leak somewhere?) probably related to bubbles seen in returns.
3. Heater/SWG blocked/high restriction

 

[carlscan26]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Also:

:idea: With the "Spillover" closed completely; no bubbles anywhere and the
pump water is different. SEEMS about 1-2 inches below lid with "some" small
bubbling. The "churning" is evident from I believe the force, but not "bubbly-churning"

When I first bleed the filter, ANYTIME, there is a NO WATER release..then solid water.
Unless the "pause" is normal, there is a lot of air entering. [It is all or nothing, no spurting]

MOST IMPORTANT TO ME RIGHT NOW [NOT INCLUDING THE HEATER...its coming]

I am convinced beyond a doubt that a blockage exists in the main drain. If the skimmer valve is
closed completely, the vortex starts. I have brushed dirt over the top of the main drain and the
various pop-ups blow the dirt other directions....no suction at all that I can see.

So....that is where I am

With the spillover closed and no bubbles I am further convinced that everything is working fine there; it's the spa nozzles doing there thing with the air as I described earlier.

How big is your pump? I think it's a 3 HP model right? Can you get us all of the specs on it and then we can get our resident hydraulics expert on this thread to weigh in. But I believe you may have too big of a pump for running with a single suction line and/or a single return line. Lack of enough supply would cause cavitation (check youtube for some videos of that) and I believe a drop in water in the pump basket would be a symptom of starving the pump on the suction side. Also, only having a single return line open could cause a lot of pressure.

I definitely think you have a suction side leak and that needs to be fixed first. Then work on the main drain blockage.

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

How big is your pump? I think it's a 3 HP model right? Can you get us all of the specs on it and then we can get our resident hydraulics expert on this thread to weigh in.

I have good news, I think.

But FIRST, Regarding the pump: I have always thought the 3 hp pump was too big. But, in reviewing the specs for answers for you, I did find the original "blue prints" showing the 3 HP pump. I have the original flyer from the pump and as I said, the original specs. I will say, there was a MAJOR error by the pool company when it was built, they almost made the pool 1.30% wider than it should have been,...they ran it to the wall of the house!! But I caught them. They had already dug and steel rebarred (?) it. They were not eager to
fix it. So it had to be re structured and "reenforced" where the hole had been dug 5 feet too wide. I am not sure
the specs are from the accurate or the monstrous hole.

PUMP: Super II High Performance Pump SP 3025x30 3HP. 160 GALLONS PER MINUTE. Total head in feet: 110.

The "final" specs on the pool say 17900 + 1800 gallons; turnover is blank, Haywad 300 sq ft filter; Hayward 3.0 HP pump and motor;

Size 17 X 38 660 sq feet; depths 3, 6, 4; perimeter 108 sq feet (spa at end here)
2 Inch Main; 2" skimmer; 1-1/2 inch return 5 ea, Main "therapy' Lines 2-1/2, 2,, 1-1/2, Gas line 1-1/2 @ ???
All Hyo (?) lines Sc hrd (?) 40 PVC

SPA: 8 x 10 IRREGULAR 72 sq ft, depth 3' 6 ; 6 air jets; 11.5 hp blower 300 w light with handrail (no handrail??0
Raised 12 inches; 11' continuous spillway, notched 2"

ANYWAY... I will see if I can attach the doc's pdf'd in.

AIR IN FILTER I think all is good! There was a @@@@ pine needle in the
relief valve [picture attached], and [dummy me], I believe I never had the relief valve fully, quickly opened
and confused the "not quite open" with a 'no water' issue. [I wondered when I could use him]

PARAMOUNT Pop-up systemAlso, I have always been told that the "spillover" had to be open for the pop-ups to have enough pressure. NOT TRUE. I have followed your instructions to the T and the system [except the Heater which we will discuss later]....is working the best I have ever seen it work.
Engineer specs for the pop-up indicate 47 seconds per port or in-floor section. When not functioning, they
can run for 2 or more minutes. They are 47 seconds!!!!

MAIN CLOGI have attached a picture of the contents of the
pump basket after two runs since I "bled" the main line (?). I ran water into the main from the equipment,
then sort of bled it by closing and opening the skimmer, which orginally resulted in the pressure drop and
"vortex". But, that is gone. AND, for the first time in longer than I can remember, the pop-up system
is operating properly. The pressure stays constant with simmer or floor valve closed or opened.
The pool is moving really well...but, with the unintentional overfill I suspect the skimmer is not really happy just
yet. But it is working.

There is not an appropirate smiley for your incredible patience and knowlege!!

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!![attachment=1:164ivnbo]Twig in relief valve.jpg[/attachment:164ivnbo][attachment=0:164ivnbo]Debris from most recent run.jpg[/attachment:164ivnbo]

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Sounds like you are getting close!!!

Just to confirm a couple things:
- Does the pump basket now fill completely with water (maybe a couple bubbles)?
- After running for a while, have you reopened the filter release valve to confirm there is no air accumulating in the filter? You will hear the air rushing out and followed by water shooting everywhere.

These 2 things would help determine if you indeed do NOT have a suction leak (not sure if that is 100% off the table yet)

The only things I can think of to deal with are the skimmer float valve (buy it and drop it in) and figuring out what is going on in the heater.

FYI, You could probably get by with a smaller pump in the future (and save some $$ on electricity) I think the blower will make your spa bubbly/forceful enough. You would just have to make sure it was big enough for the pop-ups. There are certainly people on the forum that could help determine the right size for you. I am not sure if a 2-sp or variable would help in your case as you probably would have to run on high for the floor cleaning and for the spa which are the only 2 ways you will probably be running the pool ... unless the pool stayed clean enough running the floor for a couple hours and then just circulated the water on low-speed (but then again you do not have wall returns to pick instead of the floor right?)

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Jblauert

Whew! Yes, I am getting closer. I have no "wall" option. I am curious if the 3-hp pump was spec'd
for the 5-foot wider pool?

PUMP LID I have attached two photos.

What I see is water being forced to the pump side of the filter basket from the "intake" line side of the
basket, then, "ricochetting" off the "pump side" or opposite side of the pump basket from the sheer force.
There is what appears to be an almost round "void" on the "intake" side. Intermittantly, there are many
more bubbles and the "void" is overcome by bubbles, or, the "void" and very very few small bubbles.

I cannot connect a specific "action" to the void-no void lid.

FILTER AIR Sadly, I am sure there is a suction side leak. A few moments
of air, then water. As hard as I tried to avoid those words. Other than the o-rings for the Paramount
ports, there is nothing that seems "easy" to "me" left to do.[attachment=1:ieyqy0m0]Lid 1.jpg[/attachment:ieyqy0m0][attachment=0:ieyqy0m0]Lid 2.jpg[/attachment:ieyqy0m0]

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Note: As I am sitting in here writing this, I can suddenly hear the "gurgling" bubbling coming from the pool. I suspect
it is bubbles coming up from the popups.

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

I wish I wasn't about to say this, but...something happens intermitantly that sounds like a sonic boom or far-off blasting...

but, it is from the depths of this pool. Short, loud, bubbles. I have not mentioned it because it makes me look a few steps off

center, but it just happened again...it rumbles the house. I am not an expert on "concussion" noises, and CLEARLY not on

hydraulics and pools. I was also wondering if the configuration of the pump lid could indicate something worse than a suction

side leak. These "noises" are just too loud. ???? I don't trust many people currently which is why I am not eager to contact

a repair person.

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

It just shut down...went to service.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

I would think the plumbing would have been the same for the wider pool, so I doubt that is the reason for the pump size. Seems pretty typical of pool builders to over size them ... that said ... maybe you do need it for the pop-ups ... I just do not know enough to say.

Based on the pictures of the pump ... there is definitely still air being sucked into the pump ... then some of that air is getting pushed through into the filter where is gets trapped. It could be that the amount of air accumulates in the filter until such a time that there is a lot of it and some gets pushed out of the filter and into the pool/spa ... could be the intermittent gurgling sound and bubbles?

I would suggest starting to figure out the suction leak. Make sure your pump lid o-ring is clean and lubed up and the lid is snug.

Then try pulling from just the floor and then just the skimmer (purge the filter of air for each test). Does the pump basket look different?
-If one fills the basket and one has more air then the leak is in the circuit with more air.
-If they both look the same, then the leak must be somewhere common to both circuits ... the 3-way valve/actuator/pipe-to-pump connection/pump lid o-ring

At this point we are not looking at the water returning to the pool, just trying to see is the pump basket starts behaving (maybe make note of the pressures for each to see if anything pops out as odd).

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

It just shut down...went to service.

It turned itself off? What the pump stopped or the automation shut down everything?

I think what you are describing would kind of freak me out too ... I have no idea what could make the noise ... any chance you could video (with sound) and post it to you tube or something?

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Jblauert

Yes, thank you for agreeing. I am alarmed.

The system was on "time out" and the "filter" manually selected. After four hours "time out"
returns to "Auto".

Right after I described the "noise"...well, maybe a few minutes, I realized the pump was not running.

I went out and checked and the system was on "SERVICE", not "TIME OUT", and everything was
"off". I don't recall that ever happening before.

Earlier today when I manually adjusted the "spillover' valve, I heard the loud noise from the direction of the
pool. It was alarming, but stopped, and so "odd' I chalked it off to construction blasting far and beyond.

But I had heard it earlier while manually adjusting things--became --alarmed..and mentally blamed in on the
Earthquake in Mexico [logical requires an explanation when there is none]. I eluded earlier to the "rumbling"
heard inside the house. The last one was very large. I would not be surprised to see a golf course rat
sucked out of the plumbing.

The pump basket was nearly empty of debris--some water--not hot water, the pump was not hot.

I am leary of starting it again. That noise is scarey.

Any wild idea?

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Update:

It started fine.

I switched to "spa" mode.

Pressure dropped 5 or 6 psi. Bubbles still in lid.

Switched back to pool mode and water spurted from the "spa" intake under the
actuator. I removed, relubed and replaced (thought I already did that, but???).

I have attached a picture of the "no bubbles lid" in "spa mode" after valve reset.

BUT, back in floor mode, bubbles back.

I am sort of afraid to leave it running.[attachment=0ll1rzon]No bubbles.jpg[/attachmentll1rzon]

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

That pump lid is what it should always look like. So, that pretty much confirms that air is getting sucked in on the Pool side.

BUT, can you post a pic and show exactly where the water spurted out? That could be where the air is being pulled in. Is the spurt repeatable?

 

[carlscan26]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

Jblauert

The system was on "time out" and the "filter" manually selected. After four hours "time out"
returns to "Auto".

I went out and checked and the system was on "SERVICE", not "TIME OUT", and everything was
"off". I don't recall that ever happening before.

That is odd that it would revert to service mode unless the pump issue caused a fault and the controller automatically goes into service mode when that happens? Do you have the owners manual for the controller? If not search for it on the web...?

 

[carlscan26]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

How big is your pump? I think it's a 3 HP model right? Can you get us all of the specs on it and then we can get our resident hydraulics expert on this thread to weigh in.

PUMP: Super II High Performance Pump SP 3025x30 3HP. 160 GALLONS PER MINUTE. Total head in feet: 110.

The "final" specs on the pool say 17900 + 1800 gallons; turnover is blank, Haywad 300 sq ft filter; Hayward 3.0 HP pump and motor;

Size 17 X 38 660 sq feet; depths 3, 6, 4; perimeter 108 sq feet (spa at end here)
2 Inch Main; 2" skimmer; 1-1/2 inch return 5 ea, Main "therapy' Lines 2-1/2, 2,, 1-1/2, Gas line 1-1/2 @ ???
All Hyo (?) lines Sc hrd (?) 40 PVC

SPA: 8 x 10 IRREGULAR 72 sq ft, depth 3' 6 ; 6 air jets; 11.5 hp blower 300 w light with handrail (no handrail??0
Raised 12 inches; 11' continuous spillway, notched 2"

ANYWAY... I will see if I can attach the doc's pdf'd in.

FYI - I've asked mas985 (Mark) the resident hydraulics expert to check in on thsi thread to advise you about the pump sizing and suction, pressure issues.

 

[jblizzle]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

How big is your pump? I think it's a 3 HP model right? Can you get us all of the specs on it and then we can get our resident hydraulics expert on this thread to weigh in.

PUMP: Super II High Performance Pump SP 3025x30 3HP. 160 GALLONS PER MINUTE. Total head in feet: 110.

The "final" specs on the pool say 17900 + 1800 gallons; turnover is blank, Haywad 300 sq ft filter; Hayward 3.0 HP pump and motor;

Size 17 X 38 660 sq feet; depths 3, 6, 4; perimeter 108 sq feet (spa at end here)
2 Inch Main; 2" skimmer; 1-1/2 inch return 5 ea, Main "therapy' Lines 2-1/2, 2,, 1-1/2, Gas line 1-1/2 @ ???
All Hyo (?) lines Sc hrd (?) 40 PVC

SPA: 8 x 10 IRREGULAR 72 sq ft, depth 3' 6 ; 6 air jets; 11.5 hp blower 300 w light with handrail (no handrail??0
Raised 12 inches; 11' continuous spillway, notched 2"

ANYWAY... I will see if I can attach the doc's pdf'd in.

FYI - I've asked mas985 (Mark) the resident hydraulics expert to check in on thsi thread to advise you about the pump sizing and suction, pressure issues.

WAIT ... lets not bother Mark he is busy helping me in my own thread

Actually I am sure he will bring great insight to this ... if he can wade through the 130+ posts

 

[carlscan26]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

MAIN CLOGI have attached a picture of the contents of the
pump basket after two runs since I "bled" the main line (?). I ran water into the main from the equipment,
then sort of bled it by closing and opening the skimmer, which orginally resulted in the pressure drop and
"vortex". But, that is gone. AND, for the first time in longer than I can remember, the pop-up system
is operating properly. The pressure stays constant with simmer or floor valve closed or opened.
The pool is moving really well...but, with the unintentional overfill I suspect the skimmer is not really happy just
yet. But it is working.

So did getting that stuff out clear up the main drain or is it still clogged? Did that stuff come out when you were messing with the MD?

 

[lweljwel]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

That pump lid is what it should always look like. So, that pretty much confirms that air is getting sucked in on the Pool side. BUT, can you post a pic and show exactly where the water spurted out? That could be where the air is being pulled in. Is the spurt repeatable?

Jblauert Boy, I like that "no bubbles" lid. The water spurted out of the
valve lid below the actuator for the "SPA" INTAKE right in front of the pump intake. It spurted between
two screws holding the black lid on. I removed, relubed, retightened, added one additional o-ring to valve
stem; replaced all and it was fine, on the "spa mode". Sadly, when I returned to floor mode, the bubbles
returned. I'll get that pic.

I am well aware of the "wrong" bubble situation now. That is a good thing.

The only two easy places are the two Paramount o-rings. I will get them, along with the skimmer basket plug
in the morning.

SUPER II PUMP FYI - I've asked mas985 (Mark) the resident hydraulics expert to check in on thsi thread to advise you about the pump sizing and suction, pressure issues.

THANK YOU!

CarlScan26

That is odd that it would revert to service mode unless the pump issue caused a fault and the controller automatically goes into service mode when that happens? Do you have the owners manual for the controller? If not search for it on the web...?

Yes! I have the manual; I will research. And, Yes, if the "time out" is interrupted, it switches to "service" which
must be manually overriden to return to "Auto" or "time out". "Time out" is programmed to run for 4 hours and then
revert to "Auto" & its related programming. I have never had "Time-out" switch to "Service". I will check.
That "LOUD RUMBLING" what COULD it be? The system ran 4 hours fine after the last "restart" IN "time out". I was aware of one "loud bubbling gurgling" from inside the house during that 4 hours. But it stopped.

So did getting that stuff out clear up the main drain or is it still clogged? Did that stuff come out when you were messing with the MD?

Main drain not clogged anymore. No pressure difference or "vortex" in pump with floor or skimmer blocked 100%. Yes, that was the result of main drain hose "rinse" and "bleading" with the skimmer valve;
ie closing 3/4 then all they way (the skimmer valve) for several seconds at a time until the vortex and pressure
drop disappeared.

Thank you Thank you Thank you[attachment=0:qn0gm4he]spa valve leak.jpg[/attachment:qn0gm4he] The "spurting" was from the left side of the black lid to the spa valve (under the actuator).
More specifically, between the first screw visible in the black lid in front of the left side of the actuator.
Seemed to "spurt" the width of the lid from the first screw to the 2nd screw; from under the black lid.

 

[carlscan26]

Re: Can I run Cartridge Filter with the 4 cartridges removed

I don't think the air leak is on the pool side - it doesn't make sense for the air to go back to the filter. The para,out Irving's may affect air bubbles in the cleaner but not upstream. Make sure to put silicone pop lube liberally on all of those o-rings and covers. The air leak may well be what you identified with the spa selector valve. If its still leaking then take it apart again and replace that outer o-ring that goes between the body and the cover. Put some lube on that too and reassemble carefully. Also make sure to tighten evenly.