I will try and get a pic but basically i have a super small space where the pool is a foot away from the exterior wall of the house (my only choice of location). These pavers extend from the wall of the house almost to the fence (my side yard). So I have no access to dirt except for the side of the pool near the fence. All 3 other sides of the pool have pavers extending to the edge of the exterior of the house or 15 feet away. I will essentially have to rip up a ton of pavers around three sides of my pool which i think is a dealbreaker.
Bonding upgraded pumps is too hard. What is the most powerful pump/filter that does not require bonding (and I hope will pump to my roof solar)
- Thread starter AGP noob
- Start date
- Jul 21, 2013
- 52,504
- Pool Size
- 35000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Pentair Intellichlor IC-60
Yes, since as I said in post #17 your pump, regardless of type, is not likely to be the source of stray currents.
I guess we know how much the safety of your family is worth.
As others have told you there are things you can do that likely cost less then $15K. But you think finding the right words to quote will make things safe enough.
I suggest you focus on what you can do within your budget. Not finding justification for what you don't want to do.
- May 20, 2020
- 1,001
- Pool Size
- 13600
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Solaxx (Saltron) Reliant / Purechlor R5
I think the part that's not quite clicking for you is the purpose of the bonding in general.
The purpose of bonding is to equalize the electric potential of any conductors within the pool area. These conductors are typically at minimum the water, pool shell, and pump.
With a double-insulated pump, the shell of the pump is not a conductor, so it doesn't need to be bonded. But having one less conductor around the pool doesn't magically make the rest of them safer. Having a double insulated pump eliminates the potential shock risk you'd get from touching the pump and another conductor at the same time if there were stray voltage. But it doesn't make the pool any safer.
So having a regular pump and just not bonding it isn't really making things any more dangerous than they already are. Unless you managed to touch the pump with one arm and the pool with the other arm, while there was a short inside the pump, that the GFCI didn't trip on... it's just not going to happen.
The unbonded pool/water itself is a much greater source of risk.
The purpose of bonding is to equalize the electric potential of any conductors within the pool area. These conductors are typically at minimum the water, pool shell, and pump.
With a double-insulated pump, the shell of the pump is not a conductor, so it doesn't need to be bonded. But having one less conductor around the pool doesn't magically make the rest of them safer. Having a double insulated pump eliminates the potential shock risk you'd get from touching the pump and another conductor at the same time if there were stray voltage. But it doesn't make the pool any safer.
So having a regular pump and just not bonding it isn't really making things any more dangerous than they already are. Unless you managed to touch the pump with one arm and the pool with the other arm, while there was a short inside the pump, that the GFCI didn't trip on... it's just not going to happen.
The unbonded pool/water itself is a much greater source of risk.
mguzzy
Gold Supporter
The guys are trying to give the solution by code.. If you need to make accommodations, then you will have to. Either way, with the addition of the solar panels and a pump to support it, it means you need to add bonding to your equipment to maintain the safety or your pool environment. The Specs you keep quoting about not needing bonding is for a stock pool with only the things they sold with it. When you start adding other components other factors come into play.
No this is not to code, but its better than nothing. You might be able to run the bond wire along the perimeter of the pool at the base and then go underground for the part that is along the fence.. then run that line to your pool equipment pad. Again and pic of your layout, equipment pad and everything else will be very helpful.
No this is not to code, but its better than nothing. You might be able to run the bond wire along the perimeter of the pool at the base and then go underground for the part that is along the fence.. then run that line to your pool equipment pad. Again and pic of your layout, equipment pad and everything else will be very helpful.
side note....with all the lawyers and lawsuits nowadays. How is intex not sued for all they got for selling a 48 inch high pool that must be bonded according to code, but is not even designed to be bonded. The risk of not bonding is...DEATH. These pools are super popular too and im sure 99% of people dont bond them.
Codes are a minimum. not a safe / not-safe bright line. When something "meets code" it is the bare minimum needed.
Codes are written by people, people who work for trade organizations, organizations that are lobbied by other organizations. Codes change as politics change and industry changes. You know what does not change, or care about codes - physics.
Electricity does not know, or care, about if your pool is deemed "temporary" or not, nor does it care if your pump is a certain size or not.
A double insulated device protects you from being shocked by touching the pump if somehow the hot lead comes in contact with the frame of the motor. It has nothing to do with ground potential rise and differences of earth potential which is what bonding protects against.
Just because the code says it is OK, does not mean you should do it. My hot tub is considered a temporary pool. Guess who has a bare #6 wire underneath the PAVERS around his hot tub that is bonded to the tub itself.
For the record, my hot tub is on a patio, that is pavers over an old concrete patio (yeah, I know, that is not the best method - it came that way). I pulled up the pavers around where the hot tub is, cut a channel in the concrete with a brick chisel by hand, put in the #6 bare copper, and replaced the pavers. Took me about 3-4 hours total. Anybody that is charging you $15,000 to pull your pavers (which I assume are on sand) put in a bond conductor, and replace the pavers is a highway robber. I would call $500 pushing the limit for that job. I would do it myself on a Sunday morning.
mguzzy
Gold Supporter
You added solar panels and changed the pump.. so its no longer what they sold you.
- May 20, 2020
- 1,001
- Pool Size
- 13600
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Solaxx (Saltron) Reliant / Purechlor R5
I found this nice little tidbit in the manual for an Intex XTR 24x52-
All electrical components shall be installed in accordance with Article 680 of the National Electrical Code 1999 (NEC®) “Swimming Pools, Fountains and Similar Installations” or its latest approved edition
That's probably their CYA.
In Article 680, check out the part I bolded. Apparently even a double-insulated pump doesn't eliminate NEC bonding requirements -- it just relocates them.
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(A) Performance. Bonding as required by this section is intended to help reduce or eliminate voltage gradients in the pool area by forming a common bonding grid. Bonding is not required to provide a low-impedance ground-fault current path.
FPN: The bonding requirements contained in this section are not intended to require an 8 AWG copper conductor to be bonded to a panelboard, service equipment or electrode.
(B) Bonded Parts. The following parts of a pool, outdoor spa or hot tub shall be bonded to a common bonding grid of the type specified in 680.26(C).
(1) Metallic Parts of Structure. All metallic parts of the water structure, including the reinforcing metal of the pool shell, coping stones, and deck, shall be bonded to a common bonding grid [680.26(C)]. Steel tie-wires made up tight are suitable for bonding reinforcing steel together. Figure 680-19 un680-19 680-26B1 01.cdr
(2) Underwater Lighting. Metal forming shell used to contain underwater pool, outdoor spa, and hot tub luminaires and speakers.
(3) Metal Fittings. Metal fittings within or attached to the pool, outdoor spa or hot tub structure, such as ladders and handrails.
(4) Electrical Equipment. Metal parts of electric equipment associated with the pool, outdoor spa and hot tub water circulating system, such as water heaters and pump motors.
Where a double-insulated water-pump motor is installed, a solid 8 AWG copper conductor shall be provided from the bonding grid to an accessible point in the motor vicinity.
(5) Metal Wiring Methods and Equipment. Metal piping, fixed metal parts, observation stands, towers, platforms, or diving structures, as well as metallic surfaces of electrical equipment located within 5 ft horizontally of the inside walls of the pool, outdoor spa or hot tub, and within 12 ft above the maximum water level.
- May 20, 2020
- 1,001
- Pool Size
- 13600
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Solaxx (Saltron) Reliant / Purechlor R5
To this, you're right. And ultimately the risk is minimal, but not non-existent. It is an economic choice.
For me: I do not gamble with safety. My car tires always have good tread life. I use winter tires during the snowy season. My brakes get replaced long before they squeak. I get a medical check-up every year. I go to the dentist twice a year. Other people don't do these things, and most of them don't die. It's a choice. And it's your pool and your risk tolerance/choice.
Nobody here wants to be responsible for promoting a choice for you that they deem to be unsafe; so you're getting cautious advice. The ultimate decision is yours to make.
Thank you all for the insights and help!
Here is what I am working with.
So I guess my options are
1) rip up a bunch of pavers and run the copper wire. I would also be required to tear out the concrete on the edge of those pavers (by the fence) for the copper wire.
2) One poster said on top of the pavers would create more risk but if running it underground on one side of the pool negate that risk? (i could probably also get that copper wire through the exterior wall and under the crawl space in the dirt if it would make a difference. Although that would be ridiculous.
Thanks again!
Here is what I am working with.
So I guess my options are
1) rip up a bunch of pavers and run the copper wire. I would also be required to tear out the concrete on the edge of those pavers (by the fence) for the copper wire.
2) One poster said on top of the pavers would create more risk but if running it underground on one side of the pool negate that risk? (i could probably also get that copper wire through the exterior wall and under the crawl space in the dirt if it would make a difference. Although that would be ridiculous.
Thanks again!
Attachments
mguzzy
Gold Supporter
That IS a tight space.. I like the curtain foliage, Can I come jump off your roof into the pool 
Are the pavers set in sand? if so that would be easy to pop up a line of them and the reseat them from my eyeball.
Are the pavers set in sand? if so that would be easy to pop up a line of them and the reseat them from my eyeball.
That IS a tight space.. I like the curtain foliage, Can I come jump off your roof into the pool
Are the pavers set in sand? if so that would be easy to pop up a line of them and the reseat them from my eyeball.
My yard is considered big for my area too
yes in sand but the edge by the fence is concrete
mguzzy
Gold Supporter
Then I could jump off your neighbors roof into your pool!
Ok, then I am guessing they built a concrete "frame" in which to create a sandbox for the sand set pavers, right? that concrete strip is not more than one course wide, so you could burrow the wire under that concrete strip and continue on...
Ok, then I am guessing they built a concrete "frame" in which to create a sandbox for the sand set pavers, right? that concrete strip is not more than one course wide, so you could burrow the wire under that concrete strip and continue on...
CJadamec
TFP Expert
Your highlighted text in the code is to account for the exact problem this thread is covering. For a pool that requires bonding but an original pump that didn't.
The NEC recognized that these "temporary pools" were far from temporary and not just season up and down items. That's why the changed the bonding rules to include them. The pigtail run to the equipment pad even if there was a double insulated pump installed at first is because they know that people change out the pumps on these pools for more powerful pumps more often than not
There is no reason you need to pull any more pavers then the ones needed for the bonding ring. Which is required to be 18-24" feet from the edge of the pool and buried 4-6inces deep. Simply running it along the house foundation will be fine per code.
The edge along the fence you can either go under the concrete edging or drill a small hole thru it. You would never see the hole when it was back in place because it would be under the pavers and buried in dirt.
If it were me I don't think I would go thru all of that for this setup in that space. It would be safer if you did do that yes.
- Jul 3, 2013
- 9,028
- Pool Size
- 15000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool SJ-40
I have my water bonded and all the equipment on the pad.. I do not have any bonding around the pool as I have a deck to get into the pool... There is no bonding copper wire running around my pool.. It has been fine for 9 years.. no one but me reaches into the pool from the ground.... With that said my local town inspector has no idea what bonding is or how to get it done but I do and did what I did for my setup..
How are you getting in and out of the pool? do you have a deck or is it a ladder? There are many ways to get the pool bonded and it really is easy to do.. We would like to help you get your pool bonded in the easiest and best way to keep you and your family safe... and have your solar work with the pump that will work for you..
How are you getting in and out of the pool? do you have a deck or is it a ladder? There are many ways to get the pool bonded and it really is easy to do.. We would like to help you get your pool bonded in the easiest and best way to keep you and your family safe... and have your solar work with the pump that will work for you..
Thats what Im thinking. This is something that is super rare but high risk if it happens. I know on this forum people must promote the safest and correct way no matter the costs in order to reduce liability and increase safety.
I was hoping there was a next best way to do it (partly in the dirt but mostly on top of pavers). I know I will be shamed on here for not sparing no expense to bond it correctly....but they know more than me and are probably right, and Im not the expert.
I appreciate the insights
yes correct....burrow or drill i guess wouldnt be horrible to do. thank u!
mguzzy
Gold Supporter
You won't be shamed.. don't take it that way.. we are just trying to give you best advice. You are the one that has to work within the constraints of your setup. We get that. Can you send us a pic of you equipment pad? then we will have an idea of what your are dealing with there as well.
the removable ladder (metal and maybe powder coated?). I'll bet this has to be bonded and permanently left in the pool (which i did NOT want to do, but safety is priority so i guess i would have to) This ladder is on the pavers. I think I will look into a plastic ladder to minimize this risk
Maybe this will be better than nothing for me to bond only the pump and water? To play devils advocate I can see others saying it has been fine because the probability of any issue happening is so low. But this sounds like the route I will go.
See the pic below for the equipment "pad". Its basically going on the pavers where that heat pump is (I returned and no longer have that heat pump). Im also no longer using that intex pump.
So would bonding an upgraded pump to the pool water do anything at all? This would be on top of pavers and one of the posters said a bonding wire around the pool on top of pavers will INCREASE my risk.
One issue i just realized is if i bond this thing properly under the pavers then when I take this pool down for the winter, I will have these bonding wires sticking up through my pavers (where they would connect to the pool legs and ladder) for half the year. Thatd be super annoying. I think bonding this thing the correct way under pavers is not going to be an option for me.
Attachments
- Jul 3, 2013
- 9,028
- Pool Size
- 15000
- Surface
- Vinyl
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- CircuPool SJ-40
Ok, here we go
No need to go crazzy and pull up pavers... get you a plastic nice ladder to get into the pool and bond the water and the pump and anything metal within 5 feet of the pool... Do you have an upgraded wide mouth skimmer or is it just the Intex pipes coming out the side? If the stock intex it gets interesting and we will have to figure out a way to bond the water...
Look what I just found Perfect Amazon.com : CUSTOM MOLDED PRODUCTS INC Above Ground Pump Water Bond : Garden & Outdoor
Install this into your new pump and connect the bond wire to it..
This is a good ladder from the looks of it https://smile.amazon.com/Confer-Plastics-7200-Adjustable-Roll-Guard/dp/B001RUOUI0
Bond wire from Lowes...
This is a great solution and gets your pool bonded better than most other pools out there...
No need to go crazzy and pull up pavers... get you a plastic nice ladder to get into the pool and bond the water and the pump and anything metal within 5 feet of the pool... Do you have an upgraded wide mouth skimmer or is it just the Intex pipes coming out the side? If the stock intex it gets interesting and we will have to figure out a way to bond the water...
Look what I just found
Perfect Amazon.com : CUSTOM MOLDED PRODUCTS INC Above Ground Pump Water Bond : Garden & OutdoorInstall this into your new pump and connect the bond wire to it..
This is a good ladder from the looks of it https://smile.amazon.com/Confer-Plastics-7200-Adjustable-Roll-Guard/dp/B001RUOUI0
Bond wire from Lowes...
This is a great solution and gets your pool bonded better than most other pools out there...
CJadamec
TFP Expert
Going to disagree on this course of action for this pool.
Casey's situation is one where everyone is on effectively an insulated platform, the wooden deck, when going in and out the pool or touching the water. Save for when she does maintenance on her equipment nobody is touch the water and the ground at the same time.
In the case of this pool you can easily touch the ground and the the water at the same time. Bonding just a few items like the water and the pump actually increases the risk that a voltage gradient could be present resulting in a shock.
I would strongly suggest you do no bonding at all in this case unless you plan to fully bond everything.