Bond beam failed. Why?

[Sterling555]

I have a landscaping company and we installed new coping and waterline tile for a client. One side of the coping is 12” wider then the rest and we didn’t have a mastic joint just a 1/2” saw cut for expansion. The tile has been popping off and my pool contractor friend said the bond beam is damaged.

Is this additional 12” of coping really going to cause the bond beam to be damaged? It’s not like it’s a full concrete pool deck.

Or is another scenario our Bobcat driving around during demo? Or out compactors close to the pool edge?

Also, is $15k a reasonable quote to fix the pool bond beam and reinstall the pool tile?

 

[JamesW]

You're really not providing enough information to understand exactly what the problem is or what the proposed solution is.

 

[Sterling555]

The tiles on the pool keeping popping off. I had a pool contractor look at it and tell me it’s because their is no mastic joint between the coping and the pool deck. However, the pool deck here is only 12” wider than the coping.

I am having my doubts if this small 12” pool deck could cause bond beam damage or if it was damaged prior.

Thoughts?

 

[JamesW]

It's really difficult to tell without being able to do an onsite inspection including being able to see the actual damage.

If the tiles only came off on the one side with some deck, that could indicate that the deck was possibly involved.

If there was a full depth expansion joint, it should have prevented stress related problems.

How much damage has happened to the bond beam?

How old is the pool?

 

[ajw22]

I suggest you read - Expansion Joints and Coping - Further Reading

 

[Sterling555]

Here are some pics of before. I think the pool is about 15 years old. If you look the mastic joint on the old coping is old and looks like it’s not sealed. Couldn’t water have gotten inside and caused damage prior to me pouring new coping?

 

[RoyR]

Circle in your pic where the tiles are coming off…describe the tile installation process and the products used.

 

[JamesW]

I have a landscaping company and we installed new coping and waterline tile for a client.

As a landscaping company, do you have experience working on pools and doing coping and tile?

Is the new coping coming loose?

If the problem was caused by a lack of an expansion joint, the coping would usually be pushed towards the pool and you get a horizontal shear plane on top of the bond beam.

 

[darkrider]

I see no movement in the pictures of the coping itself. Without any evidence of movement, cracks or actually seeing the bond beam, I'd be more inclined to think it's an adhesion problem with the tiles. Glass tiles aren't the easiest to work with to begin with. I'm also curious about the tile installation process and products used.

 

[JamesW]

I think the pool is about 15 years old.

Where are you getting 15 years?

I suspect that it is much older.

Can you look up the building permit?

What was the condition of the bond beam when you did the coping and tile?

 

[Sterling555]

Where are you getting 15 years?

I suspect that it is much older.

Can you look up the building permit?

What was the condition of the bond beam when you did the coping and tile?

Where are you getting 15 years?

I suspect that it is much older.

Can you look up the building permit?

What was the condition of the bond beam when you did the coping and tile?

I am looking for the permit but do not show any permits prior to 1999. none of the ones from 1999 to now are related to the pool. The house was built in 1942.

My guys have mentioned they did not see damage prior to installing coping. Her pool guy said we would absolutely see damage prior to installing coping. If that's true my guys are lying to me, didn't notice due to inexperience, or we damaged it. Is this something we would definitively see?

Also, the mastic joint that existed wasn't sealed at all. it was very old and in some places missing. Could this have caused the bond beam damage?

i am awaiting pics of the damage from the client. I am skeptical as she got two outside opinions who both blamed our coping not having a mastic. However the pool deck extends only 12" off the coping on one side. Also, skeptical because the both gave her a bid for over $50K to redo pebble tech, fix bind beam, install water tile that is already purchased onsite and NOT redo coping. Which is absolutely outrageous for the area.

 

[Sterling555]

I am looking for the permit but do not show any permits prior to 1999. none of the ones from 1999 to now are related to the pool. The house was built in 1942.

My guys have mentioned they did not see damage prior to installing coping. Her pool guy said we would absolutely see damage prior to installing coping. If that's true my guys are lying to me, didn't notice due to inexperience, or we damaged it. Is this something we would definitively see?

Also, the mastic joint that existed wasn't sealed at all. it was very old and in some places missing. Could this have caused the bond beam damage?

i am awaiting pics of the damage from the client. I am skeptical as she got two outside opinions who both blamed our coping not having a mastic. However the pool deck extends only 12" off the coping on one side. Also, skeptical because the both gave her a bid for over $50K to redo pebble tech, fix bind beam, install water tile that is already purchased onsite and NOT redo coping. Which is absolutely outrageous for the area.

 

[Sterling555]

Also, how wide can the coping be on that one side without damaging the bond beam. The coping on the one side is 12" with 12" of attached pool deck. So technically 24"

 

[JamesW]

If the coping is fine, the problem is probably not related to a lack of an expansion joint or mastic.

An open expansion joint provides protection from expansion.

If they claim that the lack of mastic caused damage, ask them to explain exactly how the lack of mastic would cause any damage.

The mastic caulk can prevent water from filling the expansion joint, which can be an issue in freezing weather.

If no freezing weather, the lack mastic is not going to be a big deal.

I suspect that the pool is probably at least 40 years old and the bond beam concrete can deteriorate in that time.

If they claim that the pool is less than 40 years old, ask them to give you the installation date with some sort of proof.

Overall, I doubt that you are responsible for any damage.

 

[ajw22]

How long of a time has there been between when you did the coping and deck installation and when the bond beam and tile damage was discovered?

This type of damage takes years of the deck putting pressure on the bond beam to crack gunite and cause tiles to pop off.

If the problem was discovered soon after you did your work then it is coincidence or your work disturbed already deteriorated areas.

 

[JamesW]

If the deck pushes on the coping due to a lack of an expansion joint, then the bond beam can crack as shown in the pictures.

If there are no visible cracks behind the tile, then the expansion joint is not responsible for the tile coming loose.

If the tile came loose prematurely, then maybe the surface prep was not good or the moratar was not good or maybe the installation was not right.

 

[Sterling555]

How long of a time has there been between when you did the coping and deck installation and when the bond beam and tile damage was discovered?

This type of damage takes years of the deck putting pressure on the bond beam to crack gunite and cause tiles to pop off.

If the problem was discovered soon after you did your work then it is coincidence or your work disturbed already deteriorated areas.

I’m assuming it’s 24+ years old after searching for permits.

We installed the coping, tile, etc 1 year ago. The tile was immediately falling off like the first week.

We have been trying to mitigate the tiling coming off and we thought maybe it was the mortar used or not a flexible grout used in between the coping and the waterline tile.

Just got some pics today:

 

[JamesW]

Without knowing the entire history, it is difficult to tell exactly what is going on.

The pool might be anywhere from 20 to 60 years old, who knows.

The deck might have been changed several times.

You are getting some bond beam shear, which is normally caused by the deck pushing on the coping, but this might have happened from a previous deck.

When the coping and tile were last replaced, the bond beam should have been inspected to ensure structural integrity.

I suspect that it was weak and maybe your crew was not experienced enough to really evaluate the bond beam’s structural integrity.

If the bond beam was defective or weak, then the issue should have been addressed at the time to ensure that the new coping and tile would last at least ten years.

We installed the coping, tile, etc 1 year ago. The tile was immediately falling off like the first week.

Do you provide a warranty on your work?

In any case, the fact that it began to fail almost immediately, puts a lot of the responsibility on you because you should have made sure that the bond beam was solid and that the materials and workmanship were of good quality.

 

[Bperry]

If there is a true 1/2” full depth saw cut between the coping and the new deck, it seems the new deck would not be able to apply pressure to the coping. Doesn’t really matter if there is sealant in the joint or not. Am I thinking that through correctly?

 

[ajw22]

If there is a true 1/2” full depth saw cut between the coping and the new deck, it seems the new deck would not be able to apply pressure to the coping. Doesn’t really matter if there is sealant in the joint or not. Am I thinking that through correctly?

We have not been shown pictures of the deck/coping interface with the saw cut expansion joint.

These pics all show deck stones too close to the coping...