Big boy rebuild in south FL... lots of questions

[emudryj]

Hi all!!! been lurking for a long while and I finally can join the discussion... Actually, I'm opening myself to all the advice and suggestions I can get.

So 6 years ago we moved into our current home. First time in my life owning a pool.
House is from the 70s and I assume the pool was built with it (not sure)
This big bad boy is a rectangular 20 x 40 x 8 feet on the deep end. (it seems that using diving boards was a real thing at that time)
Pool was in really bad shape since we moved (although we did not know what we were getting into at that time)

One skimmer is leaking for sure. Finish is not only in terrible shape, but also delaminating in one spot in a wall in the shallow end.
The main drain does not go directly to equipment but is tied to the skimmer on the shallow end.
I'm also told that there may be a small crack in a wall due to "the beam being tied to the deck" was the norm back then, so it needs to be cut. (apparently, the reason why some water line tiles are falling off).
Plumbing management is TERRIBLE!!!! there is only one valve to manage EVERYTHING.

Current pump is crappy but working.
The current salt system is Hayward (planning on keeping this). One PLS4 and one Aquarite as the slave. Both with a T-15 cell each in parallel.
Current Hayward Pro-grid 7220 DE filter (huge and AWESOME) also planning on keeping
Currently 2 skimmers, 1 vacuum, 2 returns (the one farthest away barely working)


Here are some pictures.

Will add more pictures on another post later

So the idea is to re-do the whole thing. (including deck by a different contractor).

Raising the deep end to 5 ft: Half of the pool is so deep (8 ft) that never gets used and everybody is always cramped in the shallow end.
Adding 10 X10 Spa on a corner on the shallow end
Adding sun-shelf on the other half next to the spa

So here are some of my questions or points I know I need suggestions...
-SPA amount of jets? one contractor recommended 6, another 10 jets... what would be a good amount of jets in a 10ft x 10ft spa? more = better?
-Raising the deep end: bring it up to 6ft? 5.5ft? or 5ft? does it make a difference?
- Do I need 2 or 3 returns in a pool like this?
- Skimmers: are they all the same? or should I ask for anything in particular or special?
- Pool pump: One contractor is suggesting 2.5HP the other contractor 3HP (both Jandy variable speed)
- LED bubblers on the 10ft x 10ft sun shelf: Are 3 LED/ bubblers too much?
- chipping hollow spots: Both contractors included 10% footage, is that normal? how much should I expect getting charged for extra footage?
- ORP / PH sensor and peristaltic pump: have not talked to contractors yet but would it be any problem choosing a Jandy ORP/PH and my chlorinator is Hayward? are these independent systems?
-Electric heater size: Not looking to heat the pool very often. Heating the Spa for a couple of days every other week during winter would be the main goal. What would be a good size heater for a pool like this? (Location: Around Broward County, South FL)

Anything else I'm missing? suggestions? warnings? must do's? must dont's?

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!

Lots to unpack here. I will comment on your ORP/pH probe question. Neither are recommended. Both are problematic. ORP needs a very low CYA to operate and the probes do not stay calibrated and fail randomly. Much better off testing yourself daily to begin with and then once dialed in your SWCG maintains things with testing every few days. The pH probes also need constant calibration. Better off, if necessary, to just add xx amount of acid with your peristaltic pump and test every few days to adjust.

Others will jump in on all your other things.

Good luck!

 

[emudryj]

Hey Mknauss...
Yep, big project indeed.
Thanks for the advice... will concentrate in getting the peristatic pump and disregard the ORP/pH...

 

[PoolguyinCT]

Per your heating goals - a fossil fuel heater will be best fit.

 

[emudryj]

Yeah... they told me the same... Thing is that we only have electric down here... I have the impression that the cost of adding NG will void the savings...
I would have to get a NG tank leased, installed and buried exclusively to heat the pool. Our winter is really a month (if that) long down here.

 

[YippeeSkippy]

Do you have pool noodles and floats that folks can enjoy that wonderful deep end? I love a nice deep pool! I can't imagine raising it to a more shallow level. No diving, no wonderful cannon ball contests, no diving deep for treasure...alll those things kids like doing. I love floating while sitting on pool noodles (like a saddle almost) and letting my legs dangle in the deep water....

Are you *sure* you want to get rid of it?!?! <big cow eyes>

Maddie

 

[Dirk]

Do you have pool noodles and floats that folks can enjoy that wonderful deep end? I love a nice deep pool! I can't imagine raising it to a more shallow level. No diving, no wonderful cannon ball contests, no diving deep for treasure...alll those things kids like doing. I love floating while sitting on pool noodles (like a saddle almost) and letting my legs dangle in the deep water....

Are you *sure* you want to get rid of it?!?! <big cow eyes>

Maddie

I agree that the deep end is fun. My littles love mine. And I like to swim through it, down deep. Is there enough length to extend the shallow end (to make more standing-around room) but still leave a deep end, just smaller? I realize you're losing length to the spa and shelf, but maybe put both along the side instead of the end? Or add a bench in the deep end? I have one of those, too. When the littles get too rowdy in the little end, I go and sit on the bench in the deep end to get some relief. What about the spa in the deep end? That would leave you more shallow end to stand around. And it's nice to dive or jump into the pool from a spa when you overheat. Can't really do that in the shallow end.

My deep end is too short to accommodate diving, but I have a jumping rock that is fun. You go in feet first, somewhat close to the rock, so you don't run into the slope. But you need at least 6' deep for bigger kids. Or how about some sort of structure that's part of a spa wall, that could be used to jump off into the deep end (if the spa was in the deep end)?

Just some random ideas...

I'm wondering if a 5' deep end is really going to extend the "standing around" space all that much. That would mean even a tallish person would just have his/her head sticking out, and the average women or large child would still not be able to walk around out there. So you just end up with a big area that's not a deep end or a shallow end?

If it were me... I would draw the pool to some scale, then cut out little squares to the same scale that represent the spa, shelf, bench(es), deep end, shallow end, etc. Then play around with placement. Adjust sizes as needed. Etc. Once I had an idea of what might work, I'd go out to the pool and mark off the locations of everything using strings taped to the coping, that extend across the water. That would give you an idea of just how big every section is going to be, and if they look and work right along side each other. Adjust the strings as you consider how big every section or feature should be (Maybe tie them to bricks instead of tape, so you can slide them around?). You have a unique opportunity to do this, as your pool exists, and you can better visualize everything. Most have to imagine this stuff from blueprints, and then hope they get it right.

Another thought... I get the appeal of the sun shelf. I'm not sure I'd use one myself all that much (I always have a snack and/or drink near by, and a phone.). Laying next to the pool works for me. But I know my daughter would love one. When I see others that have one, or are building one, I wonder about the vacuum. It's not going to crawl up on a shelf, right? Do you then just vacuum the lower section, and have to brush the shelf? Do the lounge chairs stay on the shelf all the time, or do they get dragged out after each use? Moving and brushing around them every few days? I know my lounge chairs stain my concrete where their feet touch it. The feet trap dirt. Does this happen in a pool? Anybody know how best to handle all that? I'd give that some thought. I wonder if you could build a shelf in such a way that it would actually end in a slope, down into the deeper shallow end, to allow the sweep to crawl up on it. Has anybody ever tried that? Or would the shelf be too shallow? You'd still have to move the chairs each day. (Another reason I wouldn't likely want a shelf. My daughter would use it, but she wouldn't be brushing it. That'd fall to me!) I like that my vacuum does that job for me, and I don't have to do anything in or around the pool for it to occur each day. Maybe a non-issue for you, since your pool is "indoor?"

My neighbor can't use a sweep with his beach-entry pool, because it would crawl out of the water enough to starve the pump. Would that happen with a sun shelf?

And finally... Did you know that it's possible to delete your drain(s) in a remodel? Drain-less pools are becoming more common. I removed mine for several reasons, and so far so good:

- Like yours, my main drains were plumbed to the skimmer, which didn't have a diverter when I bought the house, which led me to believe those drains never had water running through them, like, ever. So since my circulation was fine, and covered in part by the roaming sweep, I didn't really need them for circulation or cleaning.

- I have, without prejudice, the most beautiful grand-daughter on the planet. Seriously. It is my sacred duty to keep her safe! And if I have my way, she'll have long flowing golden locks like her mother did when she was young. Even the safest drain system, with the latest covers that reduce the risk of entrapment even better than before, is not safer than no drains at all. Period.

- My sweep was getting hung up on the drains, and they're no fun to brush around either. Now that they're gone, both problems solved.

- I'd usually find them with my foot, when jumping off the rock, or just pushing off the bottom. Not no more!

- And they were ugly. Two, big white things sticking out like sore thumbs. Now, it's just beautiful, uninterrupted pebble.

- As far as I know, drains are virtually never used to drain a pool, so that is a non issue.

If circulation is an issue with that size of pool, I would look into adding returns along the side that solve for that. I think I read they can be added lower down, to move water around in the deep end. That seems like it would be a better circulation solution than trying to accomplish that with drains, especially drains plumbed to a skimmer. And just to repeat, I would NEVER allow a plumbing system that drew water from a drain, not with my little love in the water, no way, not no matter what fancy drain cover was installed. Noooo way.

That's my .02. Now's the time to think through this stuff... I envy you, remodeling everything. Very cool. I could only afford a replaster, and didn't change the basic layout any... Have fun with it!!

 

[kimkats]

I will jump in for some of it.

-Depth-Hold a tape measure up to you. Where does 5' hit you? Try 5'5" to see where it hits. Make sure when you talk changing the water depth that you are talking WATER depth-water height being half way up the skimmer face. (poor Maddie breaking her heart to change a diving pool)

Shelf-If you put in a shelf at the end of the pool you will lose your "swim lane" I would think about putting it more on the side by the patio. That way you have a swim lane and the shelf.

Spa-I would REALLY think about getting a stand alone spa. They are MADE for soaking and relaxing. A spa in the corner of a pool is not near as comfy or relaxing. You can put the stand alone spa right by the pool so it is like it is a part of the pool.

-Bubblers-two would be plenty I would think. As it is they will be loud so........

Kim

 

[Dirk]

Any pool owners out there with a shelf? Do you like it as much as you thought you would? I lay, usually face down, on my chaise, a foot from the pool. Feels like I'm on vacation, but I'm dry. Drink and snack close by. Plus phone. Book or magazine. I lay on a towel. And I have a small one over my eyes. And I use a pillow. Very comfy. When I get hot, I jump in. Get out, dry off or not, then back to the chaise. I'd lose a lot of that comfort on a shelf, I think. Are you really cooler on a chaise on a shelf? Is it that you can dangle feet and hands in the water? Not great for reading a book... What is the appeal?

And how does it all work when others are playing, splashing and jumping into the water? My kids get the adults wet even when we sit several yards away from the edge!

Then there's putting chairs down on the pool surface. How does that work out over time? (And the vacuum issue I mentioned above.)

I'm not poo-pooing the idea, just questioning it. I thought for years that I wanted a sunroof in my car. Thought it would be the greatest. Sun on my face. Wind in my hair. Had to have one. Finally got one, used it once, then never again. Turns out I didn't like sun in my eyes nor wind in my face!! Just sayin'... I'd poll around to see if a shelf is really all it's cracked up to be...

Would be great for small kids, though. My little one would like it.

Anyone with a shelf?

 

[Dirk]

Sorry, ideas keep popping into my head. Kim's got an interesting take on the spa. Counter point to her (and me): shelf and spa in the pool, plus a shallower deep end, would mean less pool water. Perhaps significantly less. Less pumping? Less filtering? Less electricity? Less energy to heat? Less pool chemicals? Would you enjoy significant savings over time because of that? Does that matter to you? Or are larger pools (like larger fish tanks), with more water volume, more stable in terms of chemical balance, especially pH? Maybe something to consider...

 

[emudryj]

Do you have pool noodles and floats that folks can enjoy that wonderful deep end? I love a nice deep pool! I can't imagine raising it to a more shallow level. No diving, no wonderful cannon ball contests, no diving deep for treasure...alll those things kids like doing. I love floating while sitting on pool noodles (like a saddle almost) and letting my legs dangle in the deep water....

Are you *sure* you want to get rid of it?!?! <big cow eyes>

Maddie

I have plenty of those and still, most of my guest hang on the shallow end... not sure what to say.. the kids may go to the deep end for a little while playing but eventually will default back to the shallow end where the can stand up.
Can't say for sure that I want to get rid of it, but the only thing that makes me doubt is all the pool owners that would like their pool to be deeper...

 

[emudryj]

I agree that the deep end is fun. My littles love mine. And I like to swim through it, down deep. Is there enough length to extend the shallow end (to make more standing-around room) but still leave a deep end, just smaller?
I could ask... the pool is really long and not really short of space.

I realize you're losing length to the spa and shelf, but maybe put both along the side instead of the end? Or add a bench in the deep end?
The pool is 40ft long and the sunchelf/spa will be taking 10 of those so we still have most of the pool to play with. I think that they would look kind of weird putting them on the side... there will be a bench/swim out anyways on the deep end.

I have one of those, too. When the littles get too rowdy in the little end, I go and sit on the bench in the deep end to get some relief. What about the spa in the deep end? That would leave you more shallow end to stand around. And it's nice to dive or jump into the pool from a spa when you overheat. Can't really do that in the shallow end.
The suggestion by most of the builders that came to look at the project was to put it next to the sun shelf. The justification for all of them was that people are more likely to hang out on the sun shelf when not in the spa rather than on the deep end...IDNK


My deep end is too short to accommodate diving, but I have a jumping rock that is fun. You go in feet first, somewhat close to the rock, so you don't run into the slope. But you need at least 6' deep for bigger kids. Or how about some sort of structure that's part of a spa wall, that could be used to jump off into the deep end (if the spa was in the deep end)?

Just some random ideas...

I'm wondering if a 5' deep end is really going to extend the "standing around" space all that much. That would mean even a tallish person would just have his/her head sticking out, and the average women or large child would still not be able to walk around out there. So you just end up with a big area that's not a deep end or a shallow end?
Yep.. that is kind of a concern so I was wondering what you guys thought... maybe instead of making 5ft the final depth I can extend it down to 6... not sure what is the pitch or slope pool builders are limited by, but 40ft of pool -10ft of spa/sun shelf = 30ft to go from 3 or 4ft down to 6ft... maybe they can do it so the slope is not that much the first 20 feet and much steeper on the last 10 feet of pool...

If it were me... I would draw the pool to some scale, then cut out little squares to the same scale that represent the spa, shelf, bench(es), deep end, shallow end, etc. Then play around with placement. Adjust sizes as needed. Etc. Once I had an idea of what might work, I'd go out to the pool and mark off the locations of everything using strings taped to the coping, that extend across the water. That would give you an idea of just how big every section is going to be, and if they look and work right along side each other. Adjust the strings as you consider how big every section or feature should be (Maybe tie them to bricks instead of tape, so you can slide them around?). You have a unique opportunity to do this, as your pool exists, and you can better visualize everything. Most have to imagine this stuff from blueprints, and then hope they get it right.

Another thought... I get the appeal of the sun shelf. I'm not sure I'd use one myself all that much (I always have a snack and/or drink near by, and a phone.). Laying next to the pool works for me. But I know my daughter would love one. When I see others that have one, or are building one, I wonder about the vacuum. It's not going to crawl up on a shelf, right?
2 Excelent points... I wonder how useful the sunshelf would be too, so I asked 4 friends with pools. The 3 that had the sunshelf loved it, the one that did not have it wish he had it.
But you are right... the vacuum will not get to that area... the only good part about that, its that it will probably very easy to brush.

Do you then just vacuum the lower section, and have to brush the shelf? Do the lounge chairs stay on the shelf all the time, or do they get dragged out after each use?
I'm told that plastic lounge chairs can stay on for some time with no problems, aluminum ones you have to get them out after each use.

Moving and brushing around them every few days? I know my lounge chairs stain my concrete where their feet touch it. The feet trap dirt. Does this happen in a pool? Anybody know how best to handle all that? I'd give that some thought. I wonder if you could build a shelf in such a way that it would actually end in a slope, down into the deeper shallow end, to allow the sweep to crawl up on it. Has anybody ever tried that? Or would the shelf be too shallow? You'd still have to move the chairs each day. (Another reason I wouldn't likely want a shelf. My daughter would use it, but she wouldn't be brushing it. That'd fall to me!) I like that my vacuum does that job for me, and I don't have to do anything in or around the pool for it to occur each day. Maybe a non-issue for you, since your pool is "indoor?"

My neighbor can't use a sweep with his beach-entry pool, because it would crawl out of the water enough to starve the pump. Would that happen with a sun shelf?

And finally... Did you know that it's possible to delete your drain(s) in a remodel? Drain-less pools are becoming more common. I removed mine for several reasons, and so far so good:
Did not know that!!! don't you have to have them by code? I will definitely ask about it... Anyways here in FL we need to keep the pressure relieve water thingy on the deep end and not sure that can be hidden...

- Like yours, my main drains were plumbed to the skimmer, which didn't have a diverter when I bought the house, which led me to believe those drains never had water running through them, like, ever. So since my circulation was fine, and covered in part by the roaming sweep, I didn't really need them for circulation or cleaning.
My main drain was supposed to be activated by twisting the skimmer basket in place... it never worked... I would love to get rid of the main drain since that is one of the main parts where my vacuum gets currently stuck at..


- I have, without prejudice, the most beautiful grand-daughter on the planet. Seriously. It is my sacred duty to keep her safe! And if I have my way, she'll have long flowing golden locks like her mother did when she was young. Even the safest drain system, with the latest covers that reduce the risk of entrapment even better than before, is not safer than no drains at all. Period.

- My sweep was getting hung up on the drains, and they're no fun to brush around either. Now that they're gone, both problems solved.

- I'd usually find them with my foot, when jumping off the rock, or just pushing off the bottom. Not no more!

- And they were ugly. Two, big white things sticking out like sore thumbs. Now, it's just beautiful, uninterrupted pebble.

- As far as I know, drains are virtually never used to drain a pool, so that is a non issue.

If circulation is an issue with that size of pool, I would look into adding returns along the side that solve for that. I think I read they can be added lower down, to move water around in the deep end. That seems like it would be a better circulation solution than trying to accomplish that with drains, especially drains plumbed to a skimmer. And just to repeat, I would NEVER allow a plumbing system that drew water from a drain, not with my little love in the water, no way, not no matter what fancy drain cover was installed. Noooo way.

That's my .02. Now's the time to think through this stuff... I envy you, remodeling everything. Very cool. I could only afford a replaster, and didn't change the basic layout any... Have fun with it!!

Thanks for all the good info!!!!

 

[kimkats]

Make sure to check the codes in your area. I don't think we HAVE to have a main drain. It is just one of those "That is what we always do" kinds of things.

Kim

 

[Dirk]

Yes, check the codes. CA doesn't require drains, nor does my local building dept (I checked). I was wondering what those extra things were in your deep end. I don't know anything about "pressure relieve water thingy." Remember, codes change, so maybe don't take a PB's word for it. Check directly with your local city/county to verify.

If you can't get rid of the drains, I did recently learn a couple cool work-arounds at my plasterer's showroom.

1.
There are different types of compliant drain covers. The ones I had were very high, and impeded my sweep. There are compliant versions that are much lower. Maybe look for the lowest ones available to solve the sweep issues.

2.
The drain covers I saw at the showroom were covered with pebble, to match the pool! Very cool solution, I thought. You could still see them, but they were much less noticeable, because you only saw the rim, where the intakes are. The top was all pebble...

3.
My original covers were white, and obnoxious against my dark plaster. They were subsequently changed out to grey (before I eliminated them all together), which was better, looks-wise. So there are color options out there, too.


If you've got a bunch of pool owners lovin' their shelves, then that's good research, sounds like you're doing your due diligence. What I didn't point out: having a shelf wouldn't preclude my method of lounging, along the side. With a shelf, you'd have both options. I was just playing devil's advocate. You're right, you have a big pool, so you can afford the real estate for lots of fun options, which is cool.

My pool is 12' shorter than yours, so mine would fit into yours, even after you add the spa and shelf! So you have plenty of room for everything, I should think. Shelf, spa, nice-sized shallow end, with room to spare for a nice deep end (sans diving board). I would guess they can make the slope anyway you want. The only thing I can add about that: with my pool shape and dimensions, I can only dive in "with the grain:" I jump off the side, into the deep end, in the direction of shallow to deep, and kinda shoot down the slope. My deep end is short enough that if I dive off the other way, I'd smack into the slope, or I'd have to do a very shallow dive. Something to consider as you decide where everything starts and stops.

I really like my neighbors beach entry. And it'd maybe be even more valuable to me as I get older, for getting in and out of the pool. Great for littles. Great for lounging. Did you consider one? Or are you leaving the coping alone? But the vacuuming issue would be a deal breaker for me. I like the automation. Since TFP, I've taken over 100% of my pool care. I'm saving money, but I now have daily (or every-other-daily) duties. So a vac, an SWG, etc, anything to automate works best for me. I wouldn't want to brush more than I have to, or move chairs, etc. I'm trying to minimize pool maintenance. But that's just me. I'd love to have a spa, but wouldn't want to take care of it, or heat it. Too lazy, too cheap! So everyone decides for themselves what their tradeoffs are going to be. And askin' around, like you're doing, is a great way of figuring all that out. It's that we know that we don't know what we don't know that makes us want to know what we need to know!! Ya know?

Ha, hope you don't mind me taking over your remodel. I couldn't do more on mine, so I'm living vicariously!!