Anyone good out there with electrical issues (GFCI)

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Generally high speed in on at 9am on weekdays and 10am on weekends. Low speed kicks on at 11am and then turns off at 12pm each day. I had the pump on yesterday as I added acid to balance.


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I should have mentioned. I can't just turn on low speed at the app. I have to have high on and then invoke low. It's always been that way so I believe that's how it should work but this is my first time with a pool.


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If they've replaced the gfci breaker, it's not the breaker.
A dipole gfci breaker is a PITA. If there's no neutral, as some one said earlier, it compares both hot leads. The only thing that was wrong in the explanation is that it compares current, not voltage. If there is a 6 mAmp difference, it'll trip. Now, several things could cause it. One, the pump has a nick somewhere inside that causes an intermittant difference between hots. Two, the ozonator has the same issue. Three, once in awhile one hot leg runs a slight bit different than the other leg and the gfci senses an imbalance and trips. In other words, a pita nuicense trip.
They could put the ozonator on the blower breaker and only have the pump on the gfci. That would rule out the ozonator as an issue. At this point, changing the pump out would be the only thing else to try. The once a week or so incidence would lead me to think there's an intermittent difference in the hots, but that's only a guess. Gfci breakers with a neutral aren't as prone to nuicense trips.

FWIW, I agree with the pool builder. It's a stupid rule. A gfci outlet was always required for a pump that plugs in. Makes sense because someone could unplug or plug it in and it is outside. Now, for a direct wired pump, no one is plugging in or unplugging anything. Up until 2008, a hardwired pump didn't require a GFCI breaker. Matter of fact, there was quite a bit of debate about putting it in. Mine was put in under the 2005 NEC and has a regular 240, 20 amp breaker. If I thought it was an issue, I'd put in the gfci. However, it doesn't worry me in the least not having one.
 
I don't think we have gotten an answer as to whether your ozonator is 120v or 240. If either the black or red wires from the 240 circuit (i.e., only one leg of the two leg circuit) is powering anything else that is 120v tied into and out of the control block at the top in the top left, that can cause an imbalance measured by the breaker).

What I would also like to see is another picture of that looped up bunch of black wires on the lower right exposed/pulled out and know what is coming from and going to that red wire nut just at the top of what I will assume is the GFI outlet you have on the side of the panel and something else. In my inspection of your photos they have a run a black 10 or 12 gauge wire into the wire nut and connected to two smaller size wires (connecting 12 to a 10; or 14 to a 12). If that is the case, mixing of wire sizes on that circuit is a no no in my opinion.

It would also help to confirm via a picture that the lower breaker on the right labeled 'controls' is the black wire that appears to come out just under/behind the GFCI then running to that outlet.

Turn off the supply to that panel before you go tugging those wires out.
 
Looks to me like the GFCI on the exterior of the panel/box is being feed from the one leg of the filter pump breaker. Looks like it's pig tailed from that red wire nut.

I would use one of those 20 amp single pole breakers for the GFCI on the outside of panel, not being used for anything else. Make sure you have at least a 12 awg wire. Two GFCI on the same circuit could cause nuisance tripping.

The other thing is how far is the main electrical panel to the pool pad? Could be a voltage drop issue. Looks like 12 awg feeding the panel. If it's a long distance I would run 10 awg at a minimum.
 
The GFCI outlet is definitely tied into the "Control" single pole circuit.

The run to the main house panel is probably 60-70 ft. House is about 40 wide and goes up over a vaulted ceiling (obviously in the attic) and about five feet from the panel to the awning. What should be considered a "long distance"?

Still raining...no pictures...but I will suggest to them to do the meggering.


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Looks to me like the GFCI on the exterior of the panel/box is being feed from the one leg of the filter pump breaker. Looks like it's pig tailed from that red wire nut.
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That's what I initially thought as well. However, enlarging the photo in a photo viewing package shows both legs of the 240 going vertically to the control supply blocks at top left, but those wires are middle stripped, looped and head somewhere else to supply the equipment. Tracing those may reveal some issue.

The other thing is how far is the main electrical panel to the pool pad? Could be a voltage drop issue. Looks like 12 awg feeding the panel. If it's a long distance I would run 10 awg at a minimum.
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That is a good catch as well. For the run described a 10 ga wire is likely the minimum satisfactory size.

the motor needs to be meggered from the feeder leads at the breaker to ground at 500V minimum, if weak or erratic push to 1000V
preferably when relative humidity is high and after a rain, anything less than 1 mega ohm is unacceptable
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Good test to determine whether the equipment has an issue downstream from the suspect panel components and wiring. This should allow you to tell the PB the pump has an issue.

If it were me, dealing with someone who couldnt fix this in several attempts over a month, I would get a second opinion from an on-site licensed electrician. $100 to $150 bill for testing the motor on that 240 breaker, inspecting and writing up a report to correct any identified deficiencies would be well worth it.
 
60-70 feet is pushing it for a voltage drop. But I'm thinking it could be ur pump/ motor. I like his ^ idea of getting a lic. Electrician to troubleshoot. Pay him for his time then pool contractor has to fix for free. In fact I would bill the pool guy for electrician since he can't figure out what's going on.
 

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jtaves85mcss said:
That is a good catch as well. For the run described a 10 ga wire is likely the minimum satisfactory size.

.
Click to expand...

Yea, I didnt notice that. Thats 12 AWG wire (presumably a 20 breaker on the other end). Thats only 4800 watts to that panel with a pump, blower, pool light, ozonator, and outlet. That may not be the GFCI trip issue in the end, but thats not enough power out there. At 80 feet on 12 AWG wire on with a 20 amp continuous load, it's under a 5% drop, but it could be enough current drop on one leg compared to the other to trip the GFCI breaker. You need at least 7200 watts out there (30 amp feed on 10 AWG wire).
 
Guys/gals
Voltage drop will not cause a GFCI to trip. The GFCI monitors the actual current flow, not just voltage. The current is the amps x volts going thru the circuit. If the voltage on one leg of a 240 drops to say 110 and the other is say 115 the GFCI sees that and uses that as the reference. As long as the same is going back out the other side the circuit will hold. The problem is there is a current leak somewhere. It could be as simple as a nicked insulation on a wire or a failing winding in the motor. It is also possible there is something going on inside the Ozone device (my guess). That needs to be disconnected for a while to see if that is the culprit.
 
I agree disconnect the ozonator. Another easy thing to check is the connections being tight. Could be something simple like the white wire coming off the gfci breaker going to neutral bar. Process of elimination......windings in the motor etc
 
ITR said:
The GFCI outlet is definitely tied into the "Control" single pole circuit.

The run to the main house panel is probably 60-70 ft. House is about 40 wide and goes up over a vaulted ceiling (obviously in the attic) and about five feet from the panel to the awning. What should be considered a "long distance"?

Still raining...no pictures...but I will suggest to them to do the meggering.


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Click to expand...
Pigtailing the GFCI receptacle onto the control breaker(which isn't GFCI from what I can see in the picture) isn't against the law but indicative of shody craftsmanship
if there is space tell them to put it on it's own 20A breaker.
 
I looked a bit closer at the picture.
The GFCI for pump has a neutral pigtail(big white wire) with the current wiring you will probably deal with this until they pull a neutral to at a minimum the chlorine generator.
My best guess is there is a subtle ground potential change with all CPVC conduit no ground path back to the neutral/ground buss bars.
if they pulled ground wires to both the pump motor(if they didn't do this sue them) and the ozonator, any slight differences in resistance at connection points and cables lengths is what's causing the GFCI to trip.

The basic principle of GFCI is current out=current return any difference means you are the conductor to ground so it trips - safety side, but they are a subtle PITA on pumps. and fickle when a load is added in the branch
 
It may be that the GFCI is too sensitive. It is normal for continuous running motors, such as pumps, to sometimes have small electrical fluctuations. Sensitive GFCI’s may detect this and falsely trip. You may want to have the electrician try a new GFCI or a different brand of GFCI if this problem persists.

Something I found on the web....
 
Sorry guys....again...work has crazy. I got a voicemail from the PB and they said they are sending out someone to replace a "transformer". Unfortunately I don't know what transformer they will be changing out, but I will be calling them on Monday to find out. I'll let you know more to keep the thread updated. If that doesn't work, I'm going to ask them to disconnect the ozonator to see how it acts. That being said, the breaker has not tripped all week. Going on about seven days....
 

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