Another Var. Speed vs. Dual Speed Pump Question

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Wow, that's a huge penalty rate for lectricity!!!

I reckon you'll save $500 to $1,000 a year with either 2-speed or VS (225 kWh per month now (5 hrs/d at 1500W), reduced by half ($40 a month), plus a variable amount depending on good pick of the 2-speed or tweaking the VS). I like my flow meter as well for confidence and fine-tuning. I was told VS is more fun if you like mucking around with it, and I do! I'm no help on automation. Chief's solution sounds robust!
 
Pool automation does make your head hurt. Especially across manufacturers. If your Aqualogic can control a 2 speed pump, I assume via 2 relays, one for each speed, then it should be able to control a Superflo VS or an Intelliflo with an Intellicomm. One relay would control speed 1 and the other would control speed 2. These speeds can be set to any RPM you want on either pump. This will eliminate risk of low speed (or high speed) not having enough flow for what you need because you can reprogram the speed at the pump. And if you have more than 2 available relays you can control even more speeds.
 
pooldv said:
Pool automation does make your head hurt. Especially across manufacturers. If your Aqualogic can control a 2 speed pump, I assume via 2 relays, one for each speed, then it should be able to control a Superflo VS or an Intelliflo with an Intellicomm. One relay would control speed 1 and the other would control speed 2. These speeds can be set to any RPM you want on either pump. This will eliminate risk of low speed (or high speed) not having enough flow for what you need because you can reprogram the speed at the pump. And if you have more than 2 available relays you can control even more speeds.
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I was trying to do an in-the-head benefit analysis of exactly what you suggested, to wit, buying a VS pump and using it in a dual speed manner, - the apparent advantage being my ability to pick the two speeds. (This would require my ability to confirm the Intellicom's compatiability to do this before sinking big bucks into a considerably more expensive pump than would be the case with a dual speed).

I guess another manner by which to decide which way to go would be to post questions to dual speed pump owners for any real downside to this (recalling I have a open checkbook budget for this). I guess advocates for the dual speed might question the wisdom of paying more for a VS if the low speed gpm keeps my T-cell happy, and the high speed wattage use is not more than would be necessary for the time I would run it for suction side cleaning and at the same time, the rooftop solar (located on 2nd story). I was even wondering if part of this equation should involve the claim (ie savings) that the VS is a more efficient motor than dual speed motors (as Intelliflo claims in one press release in rather strident terms).

But yeah, that ability to tweak the speed is something to ponder.
 
I think you may want more than two speeds. You have to satisfy the SWG either with or without the solar. You have a spa that you are going to need to run. Plus cleaning needs and with your high energy rates you will want to use the minimum effective speed for each task. With a choice of only two speeds, particularly if those are just whatever happens to be built in to the pump, I don't think you will get either the savings you hope for, or the flows you want and need for some tasks.

You could either update you automation to work with a VS pump or just use the onboard controller on the VS pump for most of the functions.
 
While either of the options you suggest would maximize savings, they are not really viable for my wants. Updating to new Pentair automation (Easy Touch) would be prohibitively expensive ($1200+ with all the automation features I now have); and using the VS in a stand along mode would do away with the convenience of full automation (ie, not having to go to the on board VS controller to manually change pump settings).

No dount, the dual speed will save me $$; and if I can get things running as I would like with a dual speed 1.5 hp pump, it will add to that savings, given my current single speed 2.0 pump set up.

I do plan on calling in a local pool pro to help me make the decision, as my local energy rebate offer as well as being eligible for a longer warranty period will require a pro installation. Hoping there is some tricks up his sleeve that will allow my Hayward panel setup to work with an Intelliflo pump with more than just the 2 speeds (ie, maybe a combo of the Intellicomp adaptor and also adding some relays to my existing panel - all of which is way above my pay grade).
 
Like I said, I have little knowledge of automation systems, but I can't see why you can't program two speeds to work with the automation system and use the onboard timer for others. It would be similar to what I do. All my daily speeds are preprogrammed into the pump, but the solar controller has its own programmed speed (External Speed) it can activate via the comm cable. Anytime it calls for heat the external (solar) speed setting overrides the internal program that is running. The pump has the capability of several external controlled speeds in addition to the ones used by the onboard timer.
 
It looks to me like the IntelliComm will do everything you want it to do (http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/IntelliCommIIOM.pdf)

1) You can set each speed to whatever you want (see page 17). Basically, you set the speed at the IntelliFlo buttons as you would if standalone, and the IntelliComm just tells the pump to use that button's speed.

2) You can use up to 4 different speeds, as long as you can get a 9-24V output for that scenario. For example, the existing spa valve control wires can connect to RPM4, and whenever in that mode the pump will be set to whatever speed you set button 4 to. Connect the solar valve's wires to RPM3 and it will run at speed 3 when open (unless RPM4 is also on, then that takes priority). Etc.

I had done a quick calculation on the savings between running at 1700RPM and 1100RPM (based on trying a few RPMs on my IntelliFlo and noting the wattage) to illustrate the additional savings of tuning the ideal low speed. It's not as dramatic, but it is measurable. I'll find that and post later.
 
jmastron said:
It looks to me like the IntelliComm will do everything you want it to do (http://www.pentairpool.com/pdfs/IntelliCommIIOM.pdf)

1) You can set each speed to whatever you want (see page 17). Basically, you set the speed at the IntelliFlo buttons as you would if standalone, and the IntelliComm just tells the pump to use that button's speed.

2) You can use up to 4 different speeds, as long as you can get a 9-24V output for that scenario. For example, the existing spa valve control wires can connect to RPM4, and whenever in that mode the pump will be set to whatever speed you set button 4 to. Connect the solar valve's wires to RPM3 and it will run at speed 3 when open (unless RPM4 is also on, then that takes priority). Etc.

I had done a quick calculation on the savings between running at 1700RPM and 1100RPM (based on trying a few RPMs on my IntelliFlo and noting the wattage) to illustrate the additional savings of tuning the ideal low speed. It's not as dramatic, but it is measurable. I'll find that and post later.
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That does sound like it is good news for me. I will revist some earlier posts on the subject which did, if I recall correctly, expressed some kind of shortcoming as to compatability even with the Intellicom. Perhaps it would be in connection with the limited relays I have available (existing filter/pump and one I can abandon as it is just used to control a solenoid that opens up to send water out when rainfall raises water level). If I find anything, I'll post.

Looking forward to info about savings. Thanks for that too.
 
I've come across the following post some years ago from Jasonlion, a member of the brain trust:

If you are getting an IntelliFlo VS, then you can use the AutoPilot unit to turn the pump on and off, or with an IntelliComm you can use the AutoPilot to switch between two speeds on the pump.

Pentair makes a unit called the IntelliComm that allows you to select any of the four user programable speeds or off using simply connections to a relay, such as would appear in another manufacturers automation system. Since the IntelliComm is fairly expensive, it would have been really really nice if they had included something that allowed remote selection of more than one speed directly on the pump.

If you have an IntelliTouch, EasyTouch, or SunTouch you don't need the IntelliComm since the Pentair controllers talk Pentair control language. And if you only need to be able to turn a single speed on and off you also don't need the IntelliComm. But if you want a non-Pentair control system to be able to select more than one speed you need an IntelliComm.

The IntelliFlo pumps can be controlled in two ways. Either you simply turn the power on and off or you connect to them with a Pentair communication cable and send them commands. The Pentair communication cable is not something you can easily connect to unless you have a device specifically designed to work with it. So if you want to do anything beyond turning the unit on and off, for example if you want to change speeds, you need something that will convert something more commonly available (like a relay) to Pentair control language.

The entire IntelliFlo line does not play well with non-Pentair automation systems. To allow a non-Pentair automation system to change speeds you must get an IntelliComm, which costs around $400. In a similar vein, the VF timer can not turn anything other than the pump on/off, which makes it somewhat problematic. In both cases Pentair has set things up so that you really need a Pentair automation system to do anything other than the very simplest things.

Am still in the process of digesting all of this, but hope to get my Aqualine PS-4 to work with the Intelliflo pump (with Intellicom, if this does not have some limitations). Will post some more info the viability of the Intellicom for my set up.
 
One thing you can do to reduce the operating cost of your existing pump is to throttle the discharge with a ball valve. That will reduce the flow rate and electricity consumed. Valves are cheap and easy to install.
 

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pooldv said:
Max-flo is a good pump but only goes up to 1-1/2hp
Hayward MaxFlo VS Pump SP2302VSP | Hayward SP2302VSP
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So what?

Jaimslaw said:
Would appreciate it if someone can weigh in on what my annual savings would be, given a 5 hour per day run time. Not sure what my current pump is costing me, but I know its a lot. Would try to compute this but I missed a lot of my H.S. math classes due to illness (cough); tho I did graduate from college [Before I went to college, I couldn't spell 'graduate'...now I are one].
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A WFE-8 uses about 2100 watts. At 5 hours per day that is 315 kwh or $119/month.

If you were to replace the WFE-8 motor only ($300-$400), on low speed it would use about 459 watts or close to 80% reduction in cost or about $26/month.

An Intelliflo at 1000 RPM on the same plumbing would use about 150 watts or a 93% reduction in power or about $8.55 per month. Although I doubt you would be able to run at 1000 RPM for the entire run time because of the cleaner.
 
pooldv said:
Seems like the OP was looking for more than 1-1/2hp. But, I don't see that now looking back. Must be all in my head, or another thread! :)
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Actually I do wonder if, when I want to run my suction side cleaner at the same time I run my 2 story roof top solar, if The 1-1/2 will suffice. Current pump is single speed 2.0 energy hog. May dig around on this site to see if anyone has had any issue in that regard.

Also am curious, when running in spa mode only, I assume a 1-1/2 will still have vigorous spa jet action, correct?

- - - Updated - - -

mas985 said:
So what?



A WFE-8 uses about 2100 watts. At 5 hours per day that is 315 kwh or $119/month.

If you were to replace the WFE-8 motor only ($300-$400), on low speed it would use about 459 watts or close to 80% reduction in cost or about $26/month.

An Intelliflo at 1000 RPM on the same plumbing would use about 150 watts or a 93% reduction in power or about $8.55 per month. Although I doubt you would be able to run at 1000 RPM for the entire run time because of the cleaner.
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That is really helpful information. Thanks for that.

If I may, what would be the gpm on that low speed (referring to the motor change). And are dual speed low and high rpms/gpms about the same or do they vary from one make to another?
 
Jaimslaw said:
If I may, what would be the gpm on that low speed (referring to the motor change). And are dual speed low and high rpms/gpms about the same or do they vary from one make to another?
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Low speed is always half the flow rate of high speed. on a two speed pump. The WFE-8 should produce around 90 GPM on 2" plumbing so low speed would be around 45 GPM.
 
I promised some data points on energy usage, so here goes. I played with the speed and recorded the watts reported by the 011018 pump. This is going to be specific to my plumbing, but gives an idea:

2800 RPM: 1200 watts
1700 RPM: 320 watts
1500 RPM: 230 watts
1100 RPM: 160 watts

(I have my max speed limited to 2800 RPM, as I was replacing a 3/4 HP pump and the old circuit is shared with the boost pump)

Just calculating the difference between 1700 and 1100: 320-160 watts = 160w * 5 hours/day = 0.8 kWh/day * $0.38 = $.304/day, 9.12/month, $54/6 month season. Not earth-shattering, but over a few years it can covers the difference between a 2-speed and VS. I'm still in the VS camp for the flexibility even if it doesn't completely pay off the difference (and fun of doing experiments like above :eek:), but either will save significant energy over a single speed pump.
 

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