Another Southerner caught and taught by a hard freeze

[Newdude]

Sorry. I violated my own rule that a pic says 1000 words.

If you blow from the pump lid with an adapter and airlock all the valves, the pool will flood the returns and skimmer lines (down pipe at the pool and horizontal to the pad will gravity fill, able to push the air out)



But the water won't be able to push the air out at the 'up pipe' to the equipment pad, so it'll stay 2+ ft down where it's not going to freeze.



The exception is the main drain line that has another 'down pipe' to the drains below the pool. The horizontal section under the pool will glug out and fill, but the 'up pipe' and everything back to the pad past it will remain empty if air locked.



It's like dunking a straw with your finger on the end. Turn the straw sideways underwater (capped) or upside down, and it will fill. Keep it upright and it'll stay empty as long as your finger stays on the high end. That's how the skimmer and return lines flood without caps, but the bulk of the main drain line doesn't.

Only clearing the lines that hit the ground at the pad is all anyone needs in warm climates that might freeze for a week or two, but you still need a gizzmo or pool noodles to protect the skimmer from freezing. You might as well use blow though gizmos for double duty, blow the whole system (seriously it takes 5 mins after you're set up once you've done it a few times) and cap the returns while air is shooting out. (Or use blow through bungee plugs). Then cap the gizmos and your whole system is and will stay empty. The cold front could get worse and decide to stay for a month and you won't care.

You can also blow the whole system from the pump lid, cycling through the valves to isolate one leg at a time. That part is half a dozen or 6 and the end result is the same as blowing it all from each skimmer.

 

[Cetanorak]

Sorry. I violated my own rule that a pic says 1000 words.

If you blow from the pump lid with an adapter and airlock all the valves, the pool will flood the returns and skimmer lines (down pipe at the pool and horizontal to the pad will gravity fill, able to push the air out)

View attachment 552401

But the water won't be able to push the air out at the 'up pipe' to the equipment pad.

View attachment 552393View attachment 552394

The exception is the main drain line that has another 'down pipe' to the drains below the pool. The horizontal section under the pool will glug out and fill, but the 'up pipe' and everything back to the pad past it will remain empty if air locked.

View attachment 552397

It's like dunking a straw with your finger on the end. Turn the straw sideways underwater (capped) or upside down, and it will fill. Keep it upright and it'll stay empty as long as your finger stays on the high end. That's how the skimmer and return lines flood without caps, but the bulk of the main drain line doesn't.

Only clearing the lines that hit the ground at the pad is all anyone needs in warm climates that might freeze for a week or two, but you still need a gizzmo or pool noodles to protect the skimmer from freezing. You might as well use blow though gizmos for double duty, blow the whole system (seriously it takes 5 mins after you're set up once you've done it a few times) and cap the returns while air is shooting out. (Or use blow through bungee plugs). Then cap the gizmos and your whole system is and will stay empty. The cold front could get worse and decide to stay for a month and you won't care.

You can also blow the whole system from the pump lid, cycling through the valves to isolate one leg at a time. That part is half a dozen or 6 and the end result is the same as blowing it all from each skimmer.

Fantasic illustrations!

When blowing through a pump lid, is it necessary for filter cartridges to be removed from the filters? I wasn't sure if that high pressure air would damage the media. For closing the pool, then the cartridges would be removed. In an emergency freeze situation, would you also have to remove the cartrdiges to blow from the pump lid?

 

[JJ_Tex]

Sorry to re-visit this earlier post. I'm still figuring out what I'd do in the event of a power outage. So you are saying that if I connect a cyclone to the inlet of my pump that I could blow out through Gizmos in skimmers and then airlock the main drains AND the returns??? Once air is coming out of all of the returns and the mains drains, by simply closing the valves for each at the pad it would airlock them all??

Thank you for explaining!

You certainly can do that, but it may be a bit overkill for a place that does not freeze every winter and deep freezes for you are even more rare.

Typically here people keep their pools running in the winter and drain only as an OH CRUD plan for a power outage or equipment failure. Just by opening up all of the equipment and draining the water will take care of the pipes above ground and anything below ground should be safe from freezing

If you want to do the airlock, just be aware of the following:
- Using the cyclone requires electricity, so it is not a plan you can execute during an emergency power outage
- As such, you would need to time your winterization several days before the deep freeze, but not when the water is too warm or you will get algae.
- Our "winters" meander around like a drunken sailor and I do not see you being able to just winterize in Nov/December and wait until the the spring when the water temp approaches 60 like they do in the North. We may get a deep freeze, then 2 weeks later be 80 degrees (just like we are having now, my water temp is close to 60 and I bet yours is already there). As a result of the erratic winter weather, you may have to winterize/un-winterize multiple times during the winter.
- We get the majority of our leaves in the winter and spring, so unless you have a cover, keeping the pool clean while turned off would be a bit of a PITA.

Hope that helps.

 

[1poolman1]

I've used a tarp before but was wary of any heat source in there. If for some reason the temp is read at or above 32, the freeze protection would cutoff. Wouldn't that create a freeze issue for any area not fully tarped? I'm paranoid that my heat source would throw off the air temp sensor enough to cause a freeze somewhere in the system above ground. Am I overthinking that?

Unless someone has re-set it, freeze protection usually kicks in at between 36 and 38 degrees, depending on the system. Its too late at 32.

 

[HermanTX]

You certainly can do that, but it may be a bit overkill for a place that does not freeze every winter and deep freezes for you are even more rare.

Typically here people keep their pools running in the winter and drain only as an OH CRUD plan for a power outage or equipment failure. Just by opening up all of the equipment and draining the water will take care of the pipes above ground and anything below ground should be safe from freezing

If you want to do the airlock, just be aware of the following:
- Using the cyclone requires electricity, so it is not a plan you can execute during an emergency power outage
- As such, you would need to time your winterization several days before the deep freeze, but not when the water is too warm or you will get algae.
- Our "winters" meander around like a drunken sailor and I do not see you being able to just winterize in Nov/December and wait until the the spring when the water temp approaches 60 like they do in the North. We may get a deep freeze, then 2 weeks later be 80 degrees (just like we are having now, my water temp is close to 60 and I bet yours is already there). As a result of the erratic winter weather, you may have to winterize/un-winterize multiple times during the winter.
- We get the majority of our leaves in the winter and spring, so unless you have a cover, keeping the pool clean while turned off would be a bit of a PITA.

Hope that helps.

Well said. Should add this to the Texas Freeze thread for future use.

 

[Newdude]

When blowing through a pump lid, is it necessary for filter cartridges to be removed from the filters?

I would personally remove my carts. Mine are over $1000 for OEMs and the generics are $600-$700. I am overly gentle with them.

 

[Dirk]

Knowing absolutely nothing about winterizing a pool won't keep me from chiming in!

After getting rid of my main drain during a remodel, I don't miss it at all. Nor do I miss the ugly covers, or stubbing my toes on them or having to free the vac from getting stuck on them. It didn't affect circulation at all. How about closing off your main drain and abandoning its pipe and valve. One less thing to worry about, and you'd get the other advantages, too. Once you seal the mouth of the pipe inside the drain(s), you could replace the covers with a flat plate. Or if you were really ambitious you could fill them with plaster, that's what I had done. I think that can be done underwater with the right type of material.

Without the drain line to worry about, wouldn't draining all the pad equipment and using the snorkel trick to blow out the lines get you through a few hard freezes a year?

 

[Dirk]

I think whatever plan you come up with has to work without electricity. Or at least require only an amount that can be generated on site, or provided by battery. No?

 

[Newdude]

Our "winters" meander around like a drunken sailor and I do not see you being able to just winterize in Nov/December and wait until the the spring when the water temp approaches 60 like they do in the North. We may get a deep freeze, then 2 weeks later be 80 degrees (just like we are having now, my water temp is close to 60 and I bet yours is already there). As a result of the erratic winter weather, you may have to winterize/un-winterize multiple times during the winter.

+1. This is exactly how I would handle it.

I would remain open until it looked like things were going arctic, not just a day or two near freezing. Then I'd blow the lines to be care free for as long as it lasted, then fire everything back up after. I might have to do it twice in one year, then not again for 3 years.

You aren't worried about not having power if you chose to do it at 45 degrees right before it gets ugly. Bump the FC while you still have the pump running and it'll be good as long as it's cold.

The first one is overwhelming and scary. When you finally get out there and try, you start blowing and air shoots out somewhere. Then you turn a valve and air shoots out somewhere else. That's when the light bulb goes off and it all makes sense. It takes 2 or 3 tries to get the best order and process down for your system and then it's a joke. Rounds 3+ will be second nature and will take 30 mins including setup to blow the lines. It's only one step of normal closing and by itself isn't much.

 

[wireform]

Knowing absolutely nothing about winterizing a pool won't keep me from chiming in!

After getting rid of my main drain during a remodel, I don't miss it at all. Nor do I miss the ugly covers, or stubbing my toes on them or having to free the vac from getting stuck on them. It didn't affect circulation at all. How about closing off your main drain and abandoning its pipe and valve. One less thing to worry about, and you'd get the other advantages, too. Once you seal the mouth of the pipe inside the drain(s), you could replace the covers with a flat plate. Or if you were really ambitious you could fill them with plaster, that's what I had done. I think that can be done underwater with the right type of material.

Without the drain line to worry about, wouldn't draining all the pad equipment and using the snorkel trick to blow out the lines get you through a few hard freezes a year?

I'm not sure the fuss about air locking the MD. I think it's one of the easier pre winter tasks I know of. I will agree at a remodel time to make that decision understandably there were some issues leading up to it, then closing it off would make the most sense barring that there isn't hydrostatic valve under the same cover.

 

[Newdude]

I'm not sure the fuss about air locking the MD. It's one of the easier tasks I know of.

It gets some unnecessary extra concern IMO also.

For the southerners attempting any of this, they really only need to push the water down a foot or so at the pad, just to be free and clear of a couple inch frost line. (Like 1.5 inches ).

But if we have a blower out there to do that, well then Heck, just empty the dang pipes and don't worry if a little was enough when the forecast gets worse or stays longer than they though.

 

[Dirk]

I hear ya. I guess my suggestion was inspired by eliminating any aspect of this chore possible, out in freezing whether. Plus I really loved the results of getting rid of my two ugly drains. So I'm always evangelizing eliminating main drains, existing or from new construction plans.

 

[wireform]

What I like about the main drains is that it's another option of pool circulation if something goes awry with the skimmers or in the fall with heavy foliage dropping there's less chance to starve the pump.

 

[ajw22]

What I like about the main drains is that it's another option of pool circulation if something goes awry with the skimmers or in the fall with heavy foliage dropping there's less chance to starve the pump.

A main drain aids in circulation of a deep pool that has a diving like profile.

If the deep end is over 6 feet the MD can be beneficial to circulation in the hopper, no one will stub their toes on it, and it is probably not within sight to be ugly.

Sport pools that have 4 to 5 foot depth’s don’t need a MD.

 

[Cetanorak]

I really appreciate everybody's feedback on this thread. From what I've gathered here, it sounds like the best approach for a pool owner in Central Texas with pool equipment pad well below the level of the pool I should:

Acquire bungee-plugs for all 6 returns in the pool, 2 blow-through Gizmos for skimmers, a Cyclone blower.

If a multi-day deep freeze is upcoming I would pre-emptively:

1. Close all valves at pad.
2. Screw bungee plugs into all returns, gizmos into skimmers., remove weir doors.
3. Drain equipment at pad.
4. Suction-side: Connect cyclone to pump basket inlet. Start cyclone with skimmer valves open; open main drain valve. Wait for air bubbles. Close suction-side valves. Turn off cyclone. Cap gizmos.
5. Return-side: Connect cyclone to PVC at disconnected heat pump oulet union. Open return valves and start cycle. Wait for air bubbles. Close return valves. Turn off cyclone.

 

[Newdude]

^^^^^ that's what I'd do now that deep freezes are a thing by you. There's a bunch of ways to go at it, but I personally wouldn't want to have to mess with anything when the power went out several days into the 20s.

I'd see it coming and prepare for it in the 40s/50s when it was more favorable conditions for me.

Would I inevitably pull the trigger when it wasn't needed ? Of course. But I'd be too busy sleeping like a baby to care. Lol.

Plus, it's like when we buy a new snowblower up here. If you're well prepared, it all sits in the garage collecting dust for 5 years.

 

[Cetanorak]

Regarding the cyclone blowing through the filter and heatpump to ultimately blow out returns, I'm reading on some other threads that folks have a "recirculate" setting on a multi-valve. It seems that this valve would allow for bypassing the filter/heat pump so output of pump would run directly to returns. It seems like this modification to my plumbing would be particularly useful for quickly blowing out lines before a freeze without having to remove all 4 cartridges from filter. I have a check-valvee post-heat pump, just prior to in-line chlorinator, and then return valves. Could make sense to cut out the chlorinator and figure out a way to route pump output to that point with a 3-way valve between.

 

[wireform]

You can use recirculate on the the filter and just open the bottom drain.

 

[Newdude]

Could make sense to cut out the chlorinator and figure out a way to route pump output to that point with a 3-way valve between.

Much better than a MPV on a cartridge filter. One of the settings is backwash (reverse flow) and it blows the carts apart. I'd be easier to not use it than explain it to anyone ever over there.

A 3 way diverter valve will bypass it just the same.

 

[JJ_Tex]

If you bypass the filter, you still will need to drain it and the rest of the equipment.

IMO all of your underground pipes will be just fine without all of this, but kudos to you for being extra cautious. Just make sure your solution ensures there is no water trapped in pipes or equipment above ground as that is where your real risk of freeze damage lies.