Another mustard algae thread... preventing future blooms

[Kslay0721]

First time poster, although I’ve gone through many threads and the recommended reading material. I’ve been battling mustard algae since last season.

Wont go into everything I’ve been doing to try and get rid of it this season as it’s clearly not working. Going to attempt a SLAM after my Taylor K-2006 arrives this week.

So my question... I have accepted that it’s going to be impossible not to reintroduce this algae into my pool at some point after I kill off this bloom. I’ve become an expert at spotting the spores and frankly they are everywhere outside my pool. They are all over my yard from lugging pool equipment out there and scrubbing. A person can only do so much cleaning... I know to put everything in the pool while at shock level and disinfect everything. But I see the spores on literally everything- garden hose, buckets/brushes that I used to hold bleach to get rid of them, bottom exterior of pool from when I scrubbed ledges and rinsed off cleaner. It feels like when I try to get them off one thing, it just transfers them somewhere else.

I see many posters say that all you need to do to prevent algae is maintain an appropriate FC level based off CYA%. That there is never a need for an algaecide. However, if mustard algae is chlorine resistant and the only way to kill them is to shock the bajeezus out of them, how is that true? I’m genuinely traumatized from this experience. I would love to follow your path and only use nessesary chemicals, but I just don’t understand how only keeping balanced levels will prevent an algae that can clearly survive in that environment.

Hoping someone can talk me off this ledge... or is this my life now.

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! We have some experts with chemistry backgrounds who would be eager to expand on your concerns. But rather than get too far ahead of ourselves, let's wait until you get your K-2006 test kit and are able to post a full set of results. Good water chemistry is where we start anyways, then we can go from there. Have a nice/safe day today.

Mustard Algae

Today We are going to show you how you can get rid of mustard algae in your pool. By following the steps in this guide and with no expensive chemicals.

www.troublefreepool.com

 

[Kslay0721]

Welcome to TFP! We have some experts with chemistry backgrounds who would be eager to expand on your concerns. But rather than get too far ahead of ourselves, let's wait until you get your K-2006 test kit and are able to post a full set of results. Good water chemistry is where we start anyways, then we can go from there. Have a nice/safe day today.

Mustard Algae

Today We are going to show you how you can get rid of mustard algae in your pool. By following the steps in this guide and with no expensive chemicals.

www.troublefreepool.com

Thanks for your reply! I have test results from the pool store but I didn’t add them because I don’t think they are relevant to my larger question at hand. I’ve been shocking like crazy so chlorine results are in inaccurate:
FC: 7.33
TC: 8.16 ppm
PH: 7.6 ppm
Hardness: 87 ppm
TA: 103
CYA: 31

I know what I need to do for the recommended SLAM based off my results... lower PH to 7.2, shock to 12ppm and hold until no more visible signs of algae, CC below .5, and no loss in TC overnight. Then rise FC to 18ppm for 24 hours, then maintain at minimum of 4.5ppm after. All the while, detail brushing daily and putting equipment in pool at maximum shock level.

My question is: how is just maintaining this FC going to prevent a bloom after the inevitable reintroduction of this algae into my pool without an algaecide. I have already cleaned everything with bleach. It doesn't kill them. That’s how they got so deep into my yard. All it will take is a kid throwing a ball over the pool and running through the yard to retrieve and boom... mustard algae on his feet. Currently I’m not letting anyone in until it’s gone and have even bought all new pool floats/accessories for after it’s cleared.... but I can’t wash or buy a whole new yard or keep my pool closed off to the world forever. This stuff is taking over my life and I can’t touch anything in my yard without inspecting it for algae spores... and I usually find them. Going a bit crazy.

 

[Donldson]

I didn’t add them because I don’t think they are relevant to my larger question at hand.

The problem is that your question is based on some fairly severe misunderstandings of pool chemistry and biology. For instance: you can't see mustard algae spores, they are microscopic. What you're describing just sounds like pollen. I'd even question whether you are actually dealing with mustard algae as it is very often misdiagnosed. I think you're being sent chasing after the entirely wrong things to solve the issue and that's why we need to start at phase 1: getting some reliable data on the current chemistry of your water.

This whole situation is almost certainly much more manageable than it seems right now, but it is probably going to require going down some entirely different paths than you're currently heading. Just about every one of us here had to rethink what we thought we knew about water chemistry, so it isn't that we don't know how difficult it is to do something like that. We just know that a lot of very bad information is floating around out there and without correcting it we can't build the foundation of knowledge that is required to care for a pool. That's why we feel the answer to your problem starts with reading and not with hunting the yard for algae.

Welcome to TFP. We can help you, that much I'm sure of.

 

[Kslay0721]

For instance: you can't see mustard algae spores, they are microscopic. What you're describing just sounds like pollen.

Okay well that makes me feel a little bit better... can you see phosphates? I can absolutely see little mustard colored lines and specs on things around the pool and on stuff I take out of the water. And I can often times see them move if there is any water on the item for then to leverage. It’s not something you would notice if you were not actively looking and inspecting very closely. I believe you, but I also know that it’s not all a figment of my imagination. I’m seeing something and it’s not just moving with the water. I’d love to know that it’s not algae so I can get my life back.

As far as actually having mustard algae, I am rather confident that it is indeed my problem. Clear water, looks like little piles of dirt and collect in shady spots, brushes away like a dream, shows up in the exact same spot the next day, and difficulties keeping my FC up.

The amount has significantly diminished after basically dedicating my life to getting rid of them this last week. I will admit I have used a bromine solution earlier in the week, so I know I will deal with that soon enough. However it hasn’t gotten rid of it ALL. I still find small little clumps here and there (am searching hard for them) and thus why I am going to do the SLAM after I get my test.

 

[mknauss]

I will admit I have used a bromine solution earlier in the week

How much did you use?

 

[Kslay0721]

How much did you use?

32oz treatment and that was on Friday morning. It was called yellow quail- got it from pool store. I know... going to break up with the pool store as soon as I can. Been relying on them for test results as of late. I think they are as sick of me as I am them LOL.

I’ve already put in a bunch of new water since though. Did a big backwash/waste in prep for a night long storm and added a bunch of shock to keep my chlorine up, and then it ended up only raining for an hour. Filled it back up yesterday one inch from top of skimmer & will do a detailed vacuum to waste tomorrow, so that will help dilute it more.

 

[mknauss]

Likely your pool is now a bromine pool. Only way to get rid of it is to drain and refill.

 

[Kslay0721]

Likely your pool is now a bromine pool. Only way to get rid of it is to drain and refill.

Well that’s a bummer but I don’t plan on draining my pool at the moment as I would also have to buy a new liner since it’s an AG pool. Maybe at the end of the season. Does that mean that I don’t need to worry about my CYA to FC percentage as much with the SLAM since bromine can’t be stabilized?

 

[mknauss]

Bromine makes managing a pool open to the sun nearly impossible.

We would need more information on the product used to know your current bromine bank.

You can drain an above ground pool down to 18" left in the pool and refill.

 

[Kslay0721]

Bromine makes managing a pool open to the sun nearly impossible.

We would need more information on the product used to know your current bromine bank.

You can drain an above ground pool down to 18" left in the pool and refill.

okay so I have done a lot of reading and I understand the severity of this bromine situation. I used 32oz of a 99% granular sodium bromide. So i feel you are right that I built up a bromide bank.

I read in another thread on TFP that if your water is warm enough (more than your city water), you can turn off filter, open waste line, and add water to the bottom via hose. This will push out the warmer, treated water and allow me to replenish with fresh without actively draining and then refilling. Do you have any thoughts on whether this might work?

if I am not able to get out ALL the bromine bank, but diminish it greatly... won’t my chlorine eventually be able to overtake it? For example, and just using random numbers, if I get bromide bank down to 10ppm but add 20ppm chlorine. What happens? I know 10ppm of that chlorine will oxidize the bromide to bromine or revert brominide back to bromide, but what about the remaining 10ppm.. will that stick around as chlorine?

Just trying to figure out my next move.

 

[mknauss]

Draining - Further Reading

www.troublefreepool.com

In the article above, see the No Drain Exchange for what you are contemplating. Your Above Ground pool though does make that process not as efficient.
Chlorine activated the Bromine. Thus it is not protected by the CYA and is lost quickly to UV.
You need to get the Bromine to very low levels so it stops interfering with your chlorine effectiveness. You might be OK with a 50% drain. But I do not not have solid numbers on that. @Donldson may be able to give us a better read out

 

[Donldson]

if I am not able to get out ALL the bromine bank, but diminish it greatly... won’t my chlorine eventually be able to overtake it? For example, and just using random numbers, if I get bromide bank down to 10ppm but add 20ppm chlorine. What happens? I know 10ppm of that chlorine will oxidize the bromide to bromine or revert brominide back to bromide, but what about the remaining 10ppm.. will that stick around as chlorine?

The problem with this scenario is that bromine will burn up quickly in the sun. As it is, the bromide is almost instantly reactivated by the chlorine. Then it's burnt up by the sun. So yes, you will have bromine and chlorine in the water, but instead of the best of both worlds you get the worst. That's why even a few PPM of bromide in the water can create a chronic chlorine demand situation. If you dumped 2 pounds of bromide in your water then you've got about a 20 ppm bromide bank (making it an outright bromine pool) and realistically need to exchange all of your water.

To answer the questions you asked further back: you can't see algae spores and you can't see phosphates. Algae is a plant and does not move on its own fast enough to be visible to humans.

 

[Kslay0721]

Understood. Appreciate all the guidance, gentlemen! I've decided I'm going to do a halfway drain/exchange. If I'm going to drain my pool, then I want to get a new liner and I'm not in a position to do that currently. I understand I'm fighting an uphill battle.

If it really is impossible to get all of the bromides out throughout the summer and maintain FC.... then I will drain at end of season and start over when I can secure the liner that I want. I'll keep record of my experience and post later in the season. Stand by for the adventures of trying to SLAM and maintain a bromine pool in the heat of summer

 

[Kslay0721]

Hello @Texas Splash and/or @mknauss - quick confirmation request and didn't want to create a new thread as I figured it would be one of you gentlemen responding.

My water has been yielding very positive results. Been testing at least 5 times a day to get a strong understanding of my crazy chlorine/bromine hybrid mixture. OCLT has been at or less than a .4 decrease for the last 3 days. Morning tests have been around 10AM, so there could be a slight decrease from not catching it 100% before the morning sun. Last night showed FC loss of .2. Combined chlorine has been >.2 for the last 4 days. When I test for cc, the sample never turns full pink, but sometimes will have a very slight pink tint so I've just been recording that as >.2 . Is this how you would record?

The water is clear with no more visible signs of green or mustard algae. However, I am still going to do a SLAM for peace of mind and also because I let my FC drop a little lower than ideal the last few days to get data on my chlorine stability. A last hurrah to jumpstart my official conversion towards a TFP way of maintaining. Given that my water wouldn't necessarily require a SLAM based on current status (>.5cc, >.5OCLT, clear water), I am assuming (hoping) my SLAM will be rather quick.

So my actual question, I'm in the final stage of dropping pH to 7.2. If I start SLAM at say 3PM by bringing up FC to 12ppm, do you have any best practice on how I should proceed tomorrow morning if I do not see an overnight chlorine loss? Would you go ahead and maintain 12ppm until 3PM tomorrow (so the pool is at shock level for a full 24 hours) and then rise up to mustard algae shock level for 24 hours? Or would you go ahead and rise up to mustard algae shock level at the confirmation of no OCL and then hold that level for 24 hours? I will add that I'm currently staying at home and will be able to add chlorine frequently and maintain shock level pretty strongly.

I know I'm getting granular... apologies there. I don't want to dump more chlorine than I have to but I also don't want to prematurely end the SLAM. I know that there is no official amount of time necessary to complete a SLAM (just until you pass all three tests), but is there a minimum amount of time?

 

[Texas Splash]

It sounds as though you have already passed all 3 regular SLAM criteria, so I would increase to MA levels now and keep it there for 24 hrs. No swimming during that time though. After 24 hrs, you are done. The FC should fall quite rapidly from there.

 

[Kslay0721]

It sounds as though you have already passed all 3 regular SLAM criteria, so I would increase to MA levels now and keep it there for 24 hrs. No swimming during that time though. After 24 hrs, you are done. The FC should fall quite rapidly from there.

Wonderful! Thanks for the guidance!!

 

[Kslay0721]

It sounds as though you have already passed all 3 regular SLAM criteria, so I would increase to MA levels now and keep it there for 24 hrs. No swimming during that time though. After 24 hrs, you are done. The FC should fall quite rapidly from there.

Last question - in regards to my comment on the combined chlorine test. I mentioned that it never actually turns pink. When I add R-003 it will usually add a VERY slight pink tint. Will R-0003 always give it that slight tint or does that mean there is indeed a small trace of CC in the pool. Given that the color is closer to clear than pink, can I assume that CC is closer to 0 than .2ppm?

Again... sorry for the granular question. Just trying to be an expert like you!

 

[Texas Splash]

Will R-0003 always give it that slight tint or does that mean there is indeed a small trace of CC in the pool.

What it means is that at such a low level we basically consider the CC zero. Good-to-go.

 

[Kslay0721]

Hello... me again.. I know... eventually I will be self-sufficient. So I went ahead and did a two-day SLAM, held chlorine at 12ppm all day Monday, and then held at 18ppm all day yesterday - zero OCL last night and then below >.5 the last couple of days.

As soon as my CL dropped enough to get in the water, I went in to do a deep clean (don't have a deck around the whole pool so some areas are harder to get and really inspect from the outside). And I saw quite a bit of little "dirt piles" in some of the seams and other corresponding shady areas that I have not seen in previous days.... what are the odds this is mustard algae I'm seeing? Considering I didn't lose any chlorine overnight and on a sunny day, with only 30ppm CYA, I've only dropped from 18ppm to 9ppm FC thus far.. this has to just be dirt or pollen I'm seeing, right??...

Clearly, I am still traumatized.