Alkalinity Moved FAST

Seeing how my tap pH is 7.2 I can not see how adding that would raise the pH. On the other hand it will raise the alkalinity, but adding acid will not help me during top offs unless I am adding enough to lower the entire spa to 7.0-7.2 to reduce the alkalinity. The problem is there is no way to lower the alkalinity of top off water unless I was to fill a 5 gallon bucket and then lower the pH to 7.0-7.2 in the bucket before adding it...but since my tap is already 7.2 to begin with I am not sure this would work either.
Couple things here. Your pH is rising because of the TA in the water. The carbonic hardness (TA) of the fill water wants to turn into carbon dioxide which then offgasses. This offgasses, and therefore the entire process, happens much faster with aeration. As the carbonics turn into CO2, they raise the pH of the water. I don't have the chemical equation handy to show how, but that's how adding low pH water can raise the pH of your spa.

Secondly, you by no means have to lower the pH to 7.0-7.2 to lower your TA! Any acid addition at any pH will lower your TA. If you want to lower your TA from 80 to 50, use poolmath to calculate the amount of acid you need to add, then add the acid. I think you have the pH of 7 stuck in your head because when doing a major TA reduction (like from 250 to 50), adding enough acid to lower the TA that much would drop the pH very, very low until aeration could raise it back up. This low pH, perhaps less than 6, can damage pool equipment. Hence why the instructions say to add acid to lower the pH to 7, then aerate and repeat. And by no means do you have to lower it to 7 when doing a major TA reduction either, you could lower to 7.5 each time, it just means it'll take longer to do the TA reduction.

So in short, going to 7 is for major TA reductions and is just to avoid equipment damage from huge acid additions. Going from 80 to 50 this won't be a concern though.

Add the acid poolmath says to drop your TA from 80 to 50. Then aerate for 30 minutes and retest your pH and TA.

EDIT: Actually it would be good to add about 3/4 the amount of acid poolmath says, aerate and check. Then if you're on track you can add the other 1/4 or adjust if needed. This way you don't overshoot the 50 TA mark and have to add baking soda to bring it back up because your pH is sitting at 7. Ask me how I know!
 
"Secondly, you by no means have to lower the pH to 7.0-7.2 to lower your TA! Any acid addition at any pH will lower your TA."
I have to say, I have found quite the contrary. If I lower my pH from 8 to 7.4 it barely changes the TA, but if I go to 7 it puts the TA back on point. Pool Math Calculator states: "To lower TA you reduce pH to 7.0-7.2 with acid and then aerate to increase pH."


"Add the acid poolmath says to drop your TA from 80 to 50. Then aerate for 30 minutes and retest your pH and TA."
Pool Math does not give an amount of acid to lower your TA, it only gives you an amount of acid to change the pH. For lowering the TA it directs me back to the pH line and says to add what is needed to get a pH of 7.0-7.2 so basically the only numbers they give me to work on TA is in the pH line.

The only way I was able to lower the TA of my pool was a 7.0 pH, 7.4 made almost no change in TA. It only took one afternoon for the pH to rise from 7 to 7.4 and now I am at 7.4 with a lower TA.

I am definitely left confused now. After joining this forum I have realized that every spa salesman on the face of the earth is a complete liar, if anyone knew how complicated maintaining a spa was the market would not exist. I am honestly nearing the point of selling my Spa.

Before reading these responses I added enough acid to my spa this morning to drop the pH to 7, I will check tomorrow morning and see where the pH and TA are.
 
If you scroll down to the bottom of the pool calc there is an area called Effects of adding chemicals. Here you can select a chemical and then input the amount added. It will display the affect on chemistry. In the case of acid you will see how much it will lower ak and ph. I use this to get an idea of how much acid is needed.

As a side note if you lower the ph to much and don't want to affect your ak you can use borax. It will increase ph without affecting ak much. You can see the affect compared to baking soda using the tool above.
 
If you scroll down to the bottom of the pool calc there is an area called Effects of adding chemicals. Here you can select a chemical and then input the amount added. It will display the affect on chemistry. In the case of acid you will see how much it will lower ak and ph. I use this to get an idea of how much acid is needed.

As a side note if you lower the ph to much and don't want to affect your ph you can use borax. It will increase ph without affecting ak much. You can see the affect compared to baking soda using the tool above.

Good to know, thank you!

I did test the results today of what I did yesterday to my spa. The amount of acid needed to get to 7 was added, 24 hours later my pH is 7.4 and the TA has dropped to 60ppm. I was thinking about just seeing what happens after a few uses here @ 60ppm or I can add more acid right now to get to 50ppm then try aerating to raise the pH if needed.
 
I jumped the gun and used the effects calculator to drop my TA 10ppm to 50ppm. It only required 4tsp. of dry acid for 200 gallons and it says it will effect the pH by 0.5 so I am expecting a final result of 50ppm TA and a pH of 7.0 which I will then attempt to aerate back up since I jumped the gun here.

After adding acid to drop the pH how long do you aerate before it caps off? An hour after adding acid and aerating the pH should be where its going to stay for a while right? I have been waiting 24 hours for results but I assume I can test 2 hours apart if I run the jets for an hour? I assume some things require longer waits to be tested again?
 
Results are in, I ran about 4 or 5 10-min "cleaning cycles" today and just took my sample. So approximately 45min of aeration.

pH is 7.2 and the TA is I would say 45ppm. It turned pink @ 4 drops and slightly pinker @ 5 drops but not by much. I have plenty of room for rising now, I am going to see what this does....getting in for an hour right now.
 
So the TA did not move from 45, and the pH did not move from 7.2 after about an hour and a half use last night. However I did feel a mild skin irritation after similar to the 7.9+ burn so possibly 7.2 is just too low....for me it seems I need it 7.4-7.6 with no exceptions. Since I need to increase both TA and pH a hair do you think baking soda is the way to go right now??

It was mentioned about adjusting top off water and I think I am going to dedicate a 5 gallon bucket to the tub and top off 5 gallons at a time. I just need to add water that has exactly the same chemistry as my spa and I will be okay right?
 
I would use borax. You need to affect the ph more than the ak. You can get this at the grocery store. You can also use washing soda but it will increase the a ak bit more.

"It was mentioned about adjusting top off water and I think I am going to dedicate a 5 gallon bucket to the tub and top off 5 gallons at a time. I just need to add water that has exactly the same chemistry as my spa and I will be okay right?"

This is what I do. Concidering your current readings a bit of normal (2 to 3 gal) fill water may be all you need.
 

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This is what I do. Concidering your current readings a bit of normal (2 to 3 gal) fill water may be all you need.

I am not sure if you mean 2-3 gallons to adjust my current water or top offs? I was referring to top offs between water changes, 5 gallons seemed like a good amount for a 200 gallon tub. I let the hose run @ 100% for several minutes when I top off the tub due to evaporation and constantly taking water samples.

I was impatient once again waiting for a response and I added 1tsp of baking soda to raise the TA 5ppm, and it really did not make any detectable difference in TA (the color still turned pink @ 4 drops and slightly more vibrant @ 5 drops). The pH on the other hand did rise to 7.3 so I am on my way up, since I do not have Borax on hand I think I am going to just keep using the spa seeing how I am so close to 7.4 where I want and the TA seems to be okay now (lowering the pH to 7 did solve my TA problem, but Borax is something I will have on hand for raising the pH after when aeration is not enough).
 
I am not sure if you mean 2-3 gallons to adjust my current water or top offs? I was referring to top offs between water changes, 5 gallons seemed like a good amount for a 200 gallon tub. I let the hose run @ 100% for several minutes when I top off the tub due to evaporation and constantly taking water samples.

I was impatient once again waiting for a response and I added 1tsp of baking soda to raise the TA 5ppm, and it really did not make any detectable difference in TA (the color still turned pink @ 4 drops and slightly more vibrant @ 5 drops). The pH on the other hand did rise to 7.3 so I am on my way up, since I do not have Borax on hand I think I am going to just keep using the spa seeing how I am so close to 7.4 where I want and the TA seems to be okay now (lowering the pH to 7 did solve my TA problem, but Borax is something I will have on hand for raising the pH after when aeration is not enough).

I meant that you could add 2 to 3 gallons tap water. That would bump up the ak and ph a bit. Sounds like you're in good shape now.
 
Its been a few days since I dropped the pH to lower the TA, the TA is perfect and the pH is locked at 7.2 will not move at all. I would ideally like to see it at 7.4 without changing the TA. I know you said Borax will raise the pH without affecting the TA, but I have "pH Increaser" on hand I was wondering if I could use. It is sodium hydrogen carbonate so all this is going to do is raise the calcium level which is something I honestly do not really monitor in my fiberglass spa, so should I use this to rise the pH??
 
Its been a few days since I dropped the pH to lower the TA, the TA is perfect and the pH is locked at 7.2 will not move at all. I would ideally like to see it at 7.4 without changing the TA. I know you said Borax will raise the pH without affecting the TA, but I have "pH Increaser" on hand I was wondering if I could use. It is sodium hydrogen carbonate so all this is going to do is raise the calcium level which is something I honestly do not really monitor in my fiberglass spa, so should I use this to rise the pH??

Forgive me, I didn't read the whole thread but wanted to ask "why?" for the section in bold. If you found a happy spot you should just leave it there.

And that's just baking soda.
 
Forgive me, I didn't read the whole thread but wanted to ask "why?" for the section in bold. If you found a happy spot you should just leave it there.

And that's just baking soda.

Because I still seem to have skin irritation under 7.4 and above 7.6

Ohh I will throw this bottle away than, I guess my only option is borax. This "pH Increaser" is only going to raise my TA.
 

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