well I still have a bucket of granules from leslies so I figured I'd throw some in around the stains. Wherever the granules landed the stains went away. I know it can get my hardness out of control, but I can deal with that later if necessary. So if this stuff is making the stains go away, what does that mean? I dumped a bunch in the water and tried to brush but it only seems to get rid of it if its right on top of it.
Algae is gone, now stains remain
- Thread starter robl45
- Start date
The granules are probably dichlor which is both acidic and chlorine. Presumably the very high local concentration of chlorine when you leave a granule in one place is what is removing the stain. There is a remote chance that it is actually the acidity that is removing the stain, but I doubt that. I expect that this simply means that it is a thick/resistant organic stain and it will take a fair bit of time at high chlorine levels or very very high chlorine levels to remove them.
the stuff I used I believe is called Cal hypo. It is not the stuff with stabilizer in it, the stuff that can raise your calcium. So basically 2 bottles of bleach is not enough, I should be dumping like 6 bottles of bleach a day in I guess? My FC has got to be at least 20PPM at this point, so I'm guessing it must go alot higher.
robl45 said:
This goes to show that the stains are living algae if the high concentration of cal hypo killed them. This means you have not kept your FC levels high enough for a long enough period of time to kill the algae. The only way to know this is by proper testing. I suspect that your CYA was also way too low for a salt pool and we don't know where your pH has been sitting but based on the low CYA the the run time of your cell I will bet it's been running high. Live algae is green, period. It does not cause green staining. When it is dead it turns white. YOU NEED TO GET YOURSELF A TESTKIT. I work in the business and if you were one of my cusomers and refused to listen like you hae done so here you would be long gone! Sorry if this sounds harsh but it't the truth. Trying to figure out what is going on in a pool without a good set of test results is useless. It just can't be done. Ditto for throwing in chemicals without knowing what they are. If you are adding something and you want to post about it please list the ingredients of what you added so we have an idea of what might be happening instead of saying you 'believe it is cal hypo"! If it is it will say calcium hypochlorite on the bucket and give you a concentration, since cal hypo comes in different strengths from about 45% to 72%. You have taken a lot of time from people on here (who gladly give it) but you are just not listening to what they have to say!
Hope you take this as a wake up call!
It definately is calhypo, its the stuff sold from leslies, I assumed people here were familiar with it. As I've said, I know I need something better, but I have the strips that i"ve been using and they were almost dead on when i had the water tested at leslies. The stabilizer is low now, around 30ppm or so, I was planning to bring it up to around 50-60 when the stores are open. PH constantly creeps up, I keep adding more acid. My TA has dropped way down from where it was at 120 or so.
It is cal hypo 73%.
It is cal hypo 73%.
waterbear said:
robl45 said:
Leslies sells several forms of granular chlorine so that is why listing the ingredients is important. Power Powder Plus is cal hypo. Chlorbrite is dichlor. Both are granular. Also, just because one water test and your strips matched (which I find hard to believe since strips do not have the same precision as other forms of testing and strips also test total hardness and not calcium hardness so unless your Leslies is also testing with strips some of the tests are actually different!) is mere coincidence.
Read my sticky on water balance tips for SWGs and you might understand the relationship between too low a CYA level and pH rising faster than it has to. You want to keep your TA between 70-90 ppm with a SWG and you cannot get that kind of precision from strips nor can you accurately adjust your CYA. Don't even bother testing pH with strips. If you want to see why just look at the resolution on your bottle for the pH test. It mostly likely jumps from 7.2 to 7.8 (some of the better strips like Taylor's might add 7.5 but the colors are so close they are next to impossible to read!) A SWG runs best if you keep the pH in the narrow window of 7.6-7.8, an easy thing to do with a drop based kit and impossible with strips.
If you think you are getting any kind of accurate and PRECISE water testing with strips you are just deluding yourself and wasting peoples time when they try to help you with your problem that you posted.
Once again sorry for being so harsh but I call it like it is. Take it as a wake up call. This is the third thread you have started where you have been told that a large part of your problems is because you only test with strips. It's becoming a waste of time for all involved since you refuse to listen and some of us do have a lot of experience under our belts. Get your testkit out (you said you had one and stopped using it in a previous thread because the strips were easier) or, if your kit is not a good one get a DECENT test kit and see how easy accurate water testing can be.
Rob,
Waterbear is giving you valid advice. The help given on this forum for pool water problems almost exclusively revolves around very accurate testing of your water....something the pool store nor your strips can give you.
I am truly puzzled by your eagerness to ignore the very advice you ask for.
Waterbear is giving you valid advice. The help given on this forum for pool water problems almost exclusively revolves around very accurate testing of your water....something the pool store nor your strips can give you.
I am truly puzzled by your eagerness to ignore the very advice you ask for.
I am planning on getting a better test kit as I said, but I need to make sure I get one that I will be able to use. I am looking at the colorq system right now. It looks easy enough to use for me. Some of the other tesk kits require so much time and effort that I know I won't end up using it. I had a cheap test kit from walmart or somewhere, it actually ended up cracking but I only used for the PH and chlorine tests as the other tests were so convoluted that when I tried them they didn't work at all for me.
That and the fact that money is very tight at the monent isn't helping either.
That and the fact that money is very tight at the monent isn't helping either.
perhaps I can help you. I use both LaMotte and Taylor water testing at work and I can tell you the Taylor is easier to use but takes slightly longer. There are some known problems with LaMotte's colormetric testing that they are reluctant to discuss such as the fact that their CH test is very limited in the range it can accurately test and that the CYA test is very tricky to get accurate results. CYA testing is a bit tricky at best but with practice becomes very easy. It also normally only really needs to be done once a month (once your water is balanced). Chlorine testing is much easier using Taylor's FAS-DPD test and it does not suffer from the problem of bleachout that the LaMotte (AND Taylor) DPD tests do plus it will allow you to test much higher chlorine levels without having to dilute your sample (Important when shocking or killing algae!) The test is foolproof and even colorblind people can do this test since it involves titrating until the color changes from bright pink to colorless and the change is dramatic.robl45 said:
There also are limits to the LaMotte TA test because it is colormetric and NOT a titration. If you have only used a cheap testkit from walmart (most likely an Aquachem, which is no longer available) then both the TA tests and CH tests were next to impossible because the color changes were very difficult to read. A GOOD testkit like the TF100 or the K-2006 is night and day from the cheap kit you had. Most cheap test kits have a color change of blue to yellow for the TA tests and the colors are so pale that it is hard to see this color change take place. Taylor (and the TF100) have a color change from bright green to bright red. Pretty much impossible not to see this change take place. The test for CH is basically the same in all titration tests but some cheap kits use a 2 reagent test which is actually a test for total hardness and not calcium hardness (same as the teststrips). This is really a useless test for pool use!
Bottom line is this, pools require maintenance and water testing is part of that maintenance. If you are going to take care of your own pool it's just something that you have to do. If you don't want to do it then pay someone to take care of your pool and i wish you luck. There are more bad pool maintenance people around than good ones! Have you ever asked yourself why the Taylor (and TF100) testkits get recommended time and again on just about every pool forum and board on the net? It's their ease of use, reliable results, and low cost! Think how much your pool cost you then think how much you are spending on wasted chemicals because you are just guessing at your water balance. NOW does about $80 for a good test kit sound like a lot of money? It's probably a lot cheaper than one trip to the pool store can be, especially if you listen to the pool store guy who just tested your water! (I know a bit about this since I DO work in a pool store.)
Taking care of your own pool is NOT rocket science but it does involve a bit of work. Not a whole lot. In fact, once you get things under control it really only takes about 5 minues a day...that's just over half an hour a week....to keep your water in top shape. Remember, once your water is balanced and stable you really only need to test chlorine and pH daily (or every few days), TA weekly, and CH and CYA biweeky to montly--depending on whether you have a filter you backwash or not and how often you backwash if you do. For daily chlorine checks you can use an OTO total chlorine test or you can use strips. This is one place that they are useful but don't put too much faith in the numbers, you just want to know if there is chlorine in the water or not. If not then break out the big kit and see where you are.
IMHO pH should always be checked with a drop based kit and a good one. If you take one look at the pH comparater in any Taylor kit (or the TF100) and then look at the pH comparator in any cheapie kit you will immediately see what I mean, including the not so cheap kits from Guardian which I believe are no longer available either because they are owned by the same parent company as Aquachem(Chemtura, who seem more interested in selling you as many different chems as possible instead of accurately testing your water as evidenced from their imfamous ALEX water testing system at Bioguard dealers, another Chemtura company, which is well known for overdosing on chems, but I am off on a tangent!)
Bottom line is this,The best overall testkit for ease of use, cost effectiveness, and accuracy for the home user is really the Taylor K-2006 (or TF100 Testkit, which is based on the Taylor reagents and compartors.) There are more expensive kits but they are either not as accurate 0r are limited in testing range (ColorQ) or have a level of precision not really needed for home use, or field use for that matter (midget comparators from Taylor or LaMotte). There are cheaper kits but the reagents and comparators just aren't as easy to use (color changes are not distinct and some suffer from interferneces from chlorine levels that are not really that high, expecially some cheapie pH reagents!)
The tests are not hard to do properly. They come with instructions that are very clear and once you've done a test one time you see how easy it really is to do. I personally have tried many test kits that are out there including various strips and several different electronic testers. I use either a Taylor K-2006 or a TF100 (I own both, along with a lot of other kits that just are gathering dust) when I test my own pool (and actually prefer them to the $1000 LaMotte colorimeter we have at work!) Why? Because they work, are easy to do, and provide accurate information with enough precision to make water balancing easy.
You admitted that you have never used a good testkit. You ignore all the advice to get one and made some feeble excuses as to why you don't want one. You are probably wasting more money on chems you don't need or are wasting right now since you don't have a clue to your water balance!
There is really no way to help you until you het a decent test kit. The colorq is ok but it has some limitations and I would recommend it as a secondary kit for quick checks but not something that would be useful for high chlorine levels or if you have high CH (in reality, much above 300 ppm). I would still have a good drop based kit on hand for full water testing. We have a $1000 LaMotte colormeter at work and, because of the limitations of some of LaMotte's colormetric tests (and this unit has a much wider testing range than the colorq) I still use Taylor titrations for TA, CH, and ofen CYA since they provide more accurate results.
Rob,
just got your pm and I am glad that you have decided to order a decent test kit. Once it arrives post a full set of results and we will be glad to help you with your water balance issues! If you have any problems with the testing procedure itself start a new thread with your question and you will get the answers to your questions.
You will not regret getting either the TF100 or a Taylor K-2006. The kits are actually very similar and the TF100 kit does use Taylor reagents and comparators.
just got your pm and I am glad that you have decided to order a decent test kit. Once it arrives post a full set of results and we will be glad to help you with your water balance issues! If you have any problems with the testing procedure itself start a new thread with your question and you will get the answers to your questions.
You will not regret getting either the TF100 or a Taylor K-2006. The kits are actually very similar and the TF100 kit does use Taylor reagents and comparators.
duraleigh said:
Well I ordered your test kit this morning, the quicker you get it to me, the quicker I can get some readings for you guys
Hi, Rob,
We don't normally publicize our transactions but......got your paypal this AM and your kit is boxed and will ship this afternoon. We get pretty good service to FL so I think you'll get the kit Friday. Thanks!! :lol:
Don't be intimidated by your first impression of the kit. It DOES look a little complex but just take one test at a time and read the directions well. Also, there are literally hundreds of people on this forum that have the kit and they (and me) will be happy to help explain the procedures. Just post up plenty of questions and you'll get lot's of help.
One tip.....there are two chlorine tests in the kit. One called the OTO test which is inside the blue plastic box. You'll use that comparator inside the blue plastic box for your pH, but don't worry about the chlorine test for now. Use the FAS/DPD chlorine test which is more complicated but VERY accurate.
Post up your test results like this:
pH - x.x
FC - x.x
CC - x.x
T/A - xxx
CH - xxx
CYA - xx
Again, ask plenty of questions right here on the forum......you'll get lots of help and you'll get your pool crystal clear. While you're waiting, read the "stickies" section above.....lot's of good info.
We don't normally publicize our transactions but......got your paypal this AM and your kit is boxed and will ship this afternoon. We get pretty good service to FL so I think you'll get the kit Friday. Thanks!! :lol:
Don't be intimidated by your first impression of the kit. It DOES look a little complex but just take one test at a time and read the directions well. Also, there are literally hundreds of people on this forum that have the kit and they (and me) will be happy to help explain the procedures. Just post up plenty of questions and you'll get lot's of help.
One tip.....there are two chlorine tests in the kit. One called the OTO test which is inside the blue plastic box. You'll use that comparator inside the blue plastic box for your pH, but don't worry about the chlorine test for now. Use the FAS/DPD chlorine test which is more complicated but VERY accurate.
Post up your test results like this:
pH - x.x
FC - x.x
CC - x.x
T/A - xxx
CH - xxx
CYA - xx
Again, ask plenty of questions right here on the forum......you'll get lots of help and you'll get your pool crystal clear. While you're waiting, read the "stickies" section above.....lot's of good info.
In particular read the sticky on what info to post when asking for help!duraleigh said:
well the test kit is supposedly at my door according to fed ex. I hopefully will have numbers by this evening. My pool water is probably at 66 or so with the cold weather we have had down in Florida. Does that cause a problem? Usually the water is around 86 degrees or so.
ivyleager
LifeTime Supporter
I don't think the low temps will cause a problem with validity of your results. I've tested water at all temp ranges >50 degrees, and never really had outliers that would cause me to question.robl45 said:
Are you running your pump/filter 24/7, and if so how's your pressure? Is it holding steady at normal levels? I'm a firm believer in circulating the water continuously whenever you're battling an algae problem.
Bleach is easy to just pour in. But if you are also wanting to increase your CYA have you thought about using dichlor granules? That has chlorine AND stabilizer (CYA). You're killing 2 birds with one stone.
CaryB
For the CYA test, the water sample should be brought up to above 70 degrees before testing. The chlorine test should be done right after the water is taken from the pool. All of the other tests can be done cold or warm, though you may need to mix the TA and CH tests just a little longer after each drop when the water is very cold.
Geez, when I didn't have my test kit, everyone was quick to answer Now 2 1/2 hours later and nothing.
okay, so here are my results with the tf test kit.
PH 7.7 I think, i it was like between 7.5 and 7.8.
FC 22
CC 1
TA 120
CH 470
CYA 50
Now 2 1/2 hours later and nothing.okay, so here are my results with the tf test kit.
PH 7.7 I think, i it was like between 7.5 and 7.8.
FC 22
CC 1
TA 120
CH 470
CYA 50
ivyleager
LifeTime Supporter
Sorry, just got back from the roller rink....daughter's girl scout troop had their cookie sales kick off party! Anyone want some GS cookies?robl45 said:Geez, when I didn't have my test kit, everyone was quick to answer
okay, so here are my results with the tf test kit.
PH 7.7 I think, i it was like between 7.5 and 7.8.
FC 22
CC 1
TA 120
CH 470
CYA 50
Well, a cc of 1 definitely confirms something is in there...most likely the algae. With a CYA of 50, your FC should be greater than 15, so that's within limits. See below chlorine chart
Stabilizer . . . . . . Min. FC . . . . Max FC . . . 'Shock' FC
=> 0 ppm . . . . . . . 1 ppm . . . . . 3 ppm . . . . 10 ppm
=> 10 - 20 ppm . . . . 2 ppm . . . . . 5 ppm . . . . 12 ppm
=> 30 - 50 ppm . . . . 3 ppm . . . . . 6 ppm . . . . 15 ppm
=> 60 - 90 ppm . . . . 5 ppm . . . . . 10 ppm . . .. 20 ppm
=> 100 - 200 ppm . . . 8 ppm . . . . . 15 ppm . . .. 25 ppm
The one thing that catches my eye is your pH. Chlorine is most effective at lower levels....7.0-7.2 You may want to lower that slightly to see it that helps. I think I read in a prior post you use muriatic acid??? Total hardness seems high to me, but that's cuz I have, like, none. I have a vinyl pool and don't need to worry about hardness, but I think those with plaster and/or heating equipment, which you have, need higher levels. Alk looks within limits, upper limits but nothing to worry about.
I'm not sure what a BETA swg is, but is yours off while you're shocking? No need to wear out the cell while you are battling this problem. I'd recommend turning it off, and manually adjusting/maintaining your chlorine levels at this time.
I also strongly recommend running your pump/filter 24/7 for the time being. (I think everyone on this board knows what I circulation freak I am....my pump runs 24/7 during the swim season). Keep the water circulating and filtering. How's your pressure?? Is is holding at its regular filtering psi? Has it dropped any? When was the last time you checked and cleaned the cartridges? May be worth your while to do so.
That's my armchair analysis....your pool is almost totally different than mine, but the basic of pool care is mostly the same.
Good luck.
CaryB
Things tend to get a little slow around here on Friday nights.
CYA if 50 is reasonable. Standard shock level with CYA of 50 is 16, high shock level around 29. You are in-between, which seems very reasonable.
PH tends to read higher than it actually is when FC is above 15. I wouldn't worry too much about the PH until you can measure it when the FC is lower.
Your CH level is a bit high. That wouldn't affect algae, but long term you might want to bring it down some.
The basic rules for fighting algae are to run the pump 24/7, keep the FC level at shock levels by adding chlorine at least twice a day, brush the stains at least once a day, and continue till the FC level holds overnight and CC is zero and the algae is gone.
It has been quite a while now. If you have kept FC levels uniformly high that whole time then I would expect the algae and the stains to be gone by now. If, however, the FC level has been lower any substantial portion of that time this does not surprise me, algae can bounce back very quickly if you ignore it for a while.
The key hint is that CC is 1, which strongly suggests that something is still growing in the water. The solution is to be diligent about testing the FC level frequently and keeping it above 16 all the time. A couple of days of testing at least twice a day, more if you can manage it, should take care of killing everything and then a few days longer to remove the stain.
CYA if 50 is reasonable. Standard shock level with CYA of 50 is 16, high shock level around 29. You are in-between, which seems very reasonable.
PH tends to read higher than it actually is when FC is above 15. I wouldn't worry too much about the PH until you can measure it when the FC is lower.
Your CH level is a bit high. That wouldn't affect algae, but long term you might want to bring it down some.
The basic rules for fighting algae are to run the pump 24/7, keep the FC level at shock levels by adding chlorine at least twice a day, brush the stains at least once a day, and continue till the FC level holds overnight and CC is zero and the algae is gone.
It has been quite a while now. If you have kept FC levels uniformly high that whole time then I would expect the algae and the stains to be gone by now. If, however, the FC level has been lower any substantial portion of that time this does not surprise me, algae can bounce back very quickly if you ignore it for a while.
The key hint is that CC is 1, which strongly suggests that something is still growing in the water. The solution is to be diligent about testing the FC level frequently and keeping it above 16 all the time. A couple of days of testing at least twice a day, more if you can manage it, should take care of killing everything and then a few days longer to remove the stain.
so CC will drop when I keep FC up long enough then? Shouldn't the CYA be more like 60-80 with the SWG?
I was thinking of getting some granules with the stabilizer in it and using that to keep the FC up and move the CYA up. I just don't want to move the CYA up too high. But the bleach uses an incredible amount of bleach to keep the FC up, the granules seem to keep it up much easier.
I was thinking of getting some granules with the stabilizer in it and using that to keep the FC up and move the CYA up. I just don't want to move the CYA up too high. But the bleach uses an incredible amount of bleach to keep the FC up, the granules seem to keep it up much easier.