Algae despite good FC level...are phosphates to blame?

[Saturn94]

The qualifier "at some level" is important. It may be at some level but a level that TFP feels is not important enough to be included in what we teach.

Incidentally, this position is the position of 7-8 people who I consider to have the best minds for chemistry. It was not arrived at willy-nilly but rather talked about and evolved over a long period of time. years, in fact.

the conversation about newbies is already here on the forum.....you just posted in it more than once. (and NOTHING was "not allowed") Why do you think it is not allowed when you just participated? I am not really sure why you said that.

I'm glad to hear the TFP position on phosphates is based on expert input, though I know not "all experts" agree (isn't this true in most fields... ).

It seemed apparent in the other thread that suggesting alternative practices to newbies was frowned upon, and there was a threat to close the thread if it persisted. Perhaps I misunderstood or took something the wrong way?

Perhaps PM would be a more appropriate venue for this discussion as not to derail this thread.

- - - Updated - - -

Why do you use a sequestrant???

Regarding, "Do you find you can keep phosphate levels low cheaper than maintainin a higher FC/CYA ratio?" I now use Orenda PR-10000 phosphate remover. I bought a gallon of it; i don't remember its cost, but a gallon of it wasn't inexpensive. However, an Orenda company person told me that it contains 5 to 6 times the active ingredient compared to Phos Free so I only add about 2 ounces a week. I estimated that my last phosphate reading using an Aquachek one-minute phosphate test was around 10 (color estimate based on the enclosed color chart). 1 gallon at 2 ounces a week will last me 64 weeks.

So this product lasting over a year plus somewhat lower chlorine cost over a year plus algae insurance seems like a good deal to me even if I didn't save money overall.

A special shout-out to the expert who gave me the phosphate tip; thank you very much!!!

Patrick, my initial phosphate reading in November 2015, when building the pool was finished, was around 750 ppb.

Without a sequestrant I get staining on the steps, and eventually the liner if not addressed. This is despite the fact that the "bucket test" I performed to test for metals was negative.

 

[duraleigh]

It seemed apparent in the other thread that suggesting alternative advanced practices to newbies was frowned upon, and there was a threat to close the thread if it persisted. Perhaps I misunderstood or took something the wrong way?

Change your word "alternative" to "advanced" and you have it right. How was it apparent to you that alternative practices were frowned upon? You also misread the "threat"....that is your word, not the OP's

Perhaps PM would be a more appropriate venue for this discussion as not to derail this thread.

There is no derailment.....the subject is phosphate remover. Now, back to them.

Why PM's? If you have a good, strong argument for the use of phosphate remover, present it. As before, you will be challenged if your statements are incorrect.

If your algae reoccurs, I would suggest you brush your pool and be rid of it

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Saturn94,

Reading this thread (and the original thread it came from) has my head spinning a bit, not to mention my lack of sleep this past 24 hours, so I'll try to share my thoughts and hope to get at least some of it right.

Recurring algae is always a tricky problem. It could be that you have black algae (although less likely in a vinyl pool) and you just don't know it OR you have algae hiding in the seems of your vinyl liner (a very common issue with algae and vinyl). Black algae, despite it's name, actually only looks black from a distance but is actually a dark green and yellow when you smear it on a white colored surface. Black algae has a waxy coating on it that is nearly impossible for chlorine to penetrate and it grows "roots" into pool surface (plaster being most affected by it) which act as anchors and growth points. It helps to be able to identify algae whenever possible as BA and Mustard Algae have different treatment regimens than your standard, run-of-the-mill blue-green algae. Usually elevated chlorine levels for longer periods of time help. However, I do remember a thread where the OP had recurring algae issues only to come to realize that the algae was in the vinyl seams and, even though he would pass SLAMs all the time, the algae always came back because the chlorine could not get to it in the seams. You might be someone who has to run their pool at an FC of 10% of CYA as opposed to 7.5% in order to keep it clear of algae; it's not unheard of.

As far as metal sequestrant use goes, it sounds like you are regular user of those products. HEDP is a good sequestrant but it does get oxidized and, when it is oxidized by chlorine, it breaks down into orthophosphates. So there are two strategies you can deploy to help mitigate phosphate introduction into your pool - one cheap and one expensive technique.

The cheap technique would be to get a Taylor phosphate test kit (K-1106) and test your water for phosphates one some regular basis like you would test for calcium hardness. That particular test will cost you about $40. Once you do this, you can then monitor your phosphate levels and see where you are at. You'd have to correlate your phosphate levels with your additions of sequestrant to see what the effects are and then start doing fresh water exchanges on a regular basis to lower your phosphate levels if they get too high.

The expensive technique would be to test for phosphates AND ALSO test for phosphonates. That would be the Taylor K-1583 and the K-1106 and it will set you back by about ~$140 in total. So why test for phosphonates? Well, the metal sequestrant you are using is a phosphonate and you are basically just adding it blind to your pool water with no testing so (A) you don't know at all what your HEDP level is and (B) you have no idea what an effective level is for your pool. It would be like adding a half gallon of bleach to your pool everyday without ever testing FC levels; you're just going on faith that it will work. If you know what your HEDP concentration is, then you can more accurately find an optimal amount to add which could then lead to lower overall phosphate levels when the HEDP breaks down.

A third option would be to switch to Jack's Magic Magenta Stuff which is a polyacrylic acid (PAA) based sequestrant. It's just as good as HEDP but, when it breaks down, it breaks down into CO2 and water (assuming full oxidation). Bad news is the Magenta Stuff is pricey.

So, do phosphates matter? Hard to say. What the literature says is that, below a 1000ppb, phosphates probably have little effect on algae growth rates. Somewhere between 1000ppb and 3000ppb is a grey zone. Over 3000ppb and the water is now nutrient-rich in phosphates giving algae plenty of food to chew on. Ultimately, past a certain level of phosphates, the reproduction rate limiting factors becomes sunlight exposure (hours of daylight) and temperature. Warm waters, especially those found in heated pools (solar heaters, etc) are very good at promoting algae reproduction.

A phosphate remover is not going to hurt anything, it's just not on my high-priority of "things to check" when algae comes knocking at your door. The phosphate removers are acidic solutions of lanthanum chloride (LaCl3). When it mixes in the water it very quickly forms lanthanum carbonate (La2(CO3)3) and that's the substance that clouds the water. As it sits in the water and gets sucked into the filter, the lanthanum carbonate reacts with phosphates to form insoluble lanthanum phosphate (LaPO4). People with sand filters often need to use a clarifier along with the phosphate remover because the precipitate is not easily removed by a sand filter. However, with your DE filter, you can skip the clarifier and just wait for your filter to get rid of it. A good phosphate remover (Orenda PR-10000 or Halosource SeaKlear Commercial Strength Phosphate Remover) will cost about $100 per gallon.

However, before you go trying phosphate removers, I would work on the other suggestions first and, if you can, try to get a handle on what your actual phosphate level is. You could be "off-the-charts" or not....good to know either way. Hey, you can make a game of it too and get your water perfectly balanced to TFP Recommended Levels and then bring a sample to the pool store for testing to see how badly they screw it up. They can also give you their guesstimate of what your phosphate levels are.

Sorry if my post is just treading old ground...i've had a long day and i'm quite tired....

Good luck,
Matt

 

[Patrick_B]

Why do you use a sequestrant???

Regarding, "Do you find you can keep phosphate levels low cheaper than maintainin a higher FC/CYA ratio?" I now use Orenda PR-10000 phosphate remover. I bought a gallon of it; i don't remember its cost, but a gallon of it wasn't inexpensive. However, an Orenda company person told me that it contains 5 to 6 times the active ingredient compared to Phos Free so I only add about 2 ounces a week. I estimated that my last phosphate reading using an Aquachek one-minute phosphate test was around 10 (color estimate based on the enclosed color chart). 1 gallon at 2 ounces a week will last me 64 weeks.

So this product lasting over a year plus somewhat lower chlorine cost over a year plus algae insurance seems like a good deal to me even if I didn't save money overall.

A special shout-out to the expert who gave me the phosphate tip; thank you very much!!!

Patrick, my initial phosphate reading in November 2015, when building the pool was finished, was around 750 ppb.

I see now, It was a later post I was thinking of. Curiously, why did you change Phosphate tests? We're you not satisfied with results from your first one? A minor point, just curious.

What I find more interesting is your willingness to accept the number of products in your pool you could easily do without. If it's worth it to you for the few dollars you save on Chlorine, or acquire this insurance you mention, then it is. It's absolutely your business, but personally, it's a mixture I'd prefer to avoid being in, or having to purchase and add no matter the cost. I know I could not in good conscience recommend it to friends or family either. I'd rather have as few products in my pool as possible, but that's my philosophy, and I have no intentions or illusions about changing yours.

 

[Swampwoman]

Saturn, I am no chemist by any stretch, but I deal with the conundrum of high phosphates from spent sequestrant versus my desire to switch to swg and ergo operate with lower phosphates

A test, a treatment, and a switch to jack's magenta is not an inexpensive proposition ... If the levels are higher than 3000 a partial water change might also be an option and you'd want to weigh the cost/benefit of each. Jacks purple IS formulated for salt, so I suspect it has considerably less phosphate than something like jacks pink.

My understanding is that the spent phosphate is not what's keeping your metal staining in check, its the active version. So I've been coming, slowly, to a personal opinion that at least for those on well, its not a bad idea to use a commercial level phosphate remover every few seasons...which of course and ironically would be followed up with a re treatment of sequestrant. If I weren't on well, a partial water change would have a cheaper, mitigating effect.

But one question I have is are you even on well water? If not, a partial drain might reduce your metal level to under the .3 ppm that causes staining. Then you could dial back the volume of Jacks purple, you'd have reduced any possible phosphate level, and you might have some idea if that was affecting your algae sensitivity.

In your case, after several years of not having the experience, it might suggest that there's been a build up over time.

Just a thought on options to consider/experiment with

 

[Marcion333]

I see now, It was a later post I was thinking of. Curiously, why did you change Phosphate tests? We're you not satisfied with results from your first one? A minor point, just curious.

What I find more interesting is your willingness to accept the number of products in your pool you could easily do without. If it's worth it to you for the few dollars you save on Chlorine, or acquire this insurance you mention, then it is. It's absolutely your business, but personally, it's a mixture I'd prefer to avoid being in, or having to purchase and add no matter the cost. I know I could not in good conscience recommend it to friends or family either. I'd rather have as few products in my pool as possible, but that's my philosophy, and I have no intentions or illusions about changing yours.

I see now, It was a later post I was thinking of. Curiously, why did you change Phosphate tests? We're you not satisfied with results from your first one? A minor point, just curious.

What I find more interesting is your willingness to accept the number of products in your pool you could easily do without. If it's worth it to you for the few dollars you save on Chlorine, or acquire this insurance you mention, then it is. It's absolutely your business, but personally, it's a mixture I'd prefer to avoid being in, or having to purchase and add no matter the cost. I know I could not in good conscience recommend it to friends or family either. I'd rather have as few products in my pool as possible, but that's my philosophy, and I have no intentions or illusions about changing yours.

Regarding changing tests, after comparing the Taylor and Aquachek tests I determined that Aquachek's results were about the same as Taylor's and was faster. However, I still use the Taylor test occasionally.

Regarding acceptance, I have no phosphates and I have no algae; I am willing to accept this.

Regarding additional products in the pool, phosphate remover is just ONE additional product, and it binds with phosphates and then is filtered out of the water so it doesn't stay in the pool water.

Regarding cost, fortunately I can afford an additional 45 cents a week in overall pool costs (I determined this number after looking up Orenda's gallon price on Amazon.com divided by 2 ounces per week).

For the record, there are other people who use this method, including the expert who initially gave me this tip. As more proof, this very thread is a carryover from a previous thread started by someone who uses this method.

 

[Patrick_B]

You forgot a few things as I recall, but it proves nothing except you and others are willing to buy and put things in your pool most of us are not. You all can do it with those things, and we can do it without them. Personal preference in the end, so do what makes you happy Marcion, no one is stopping you.

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Marcion333,

If you would, please keep a detailed record of your experimental results and let us know how you fair. Also, if you can do some forensic accounting and figure out what your FC costs were before and after phosphate removal that would be great too. Feel free to post all of this info in The Deep End sub forum.

There is no censorship here despite how some might feel. What we are after, at the end if the day, is best practices and those "best practices" might include "advanced techniques" as well. One thing we all need to keep in mind is that, as practitioners and teachers of the TFPC Method, we need to teach to level of the students involved. Some come here after years of frustration and wasted money ready to back-fill their pools and turn them into giant concrete planter boxes. Many come here with little to no chemistry knowledge and all they are seeking is a better way. Now that's not to be misunderstood as me or anyone treating people like simpletons, HOGWASH! I never, ever treat anyone that way and I am happy to teach anyone. I firmly believe all can learn the ins & outs of water chemistry regardless of where they are in life.

But, I also recognize that you don't feed a sick person a steak dinner with all the trimmings. They come here sick from the pool stores advice and all they need is a little chicken broth to get them going. So, when a new person arrive (maybe we should banish the term "newbie"), the best course of action is to get to know them and their situation in detail and start off with baby-steps. Once their confidence in our methods grows, then they can explore whatever topics it is they want....even the verboten "mineral ion system"

Best wishes,
Matt


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

 

[Saturn94]

Change your word "alternative" to "advanced" and you have it right. How was it apparent to you that alternative practices were frowned upon? You also misread the "threat"....that is your word, not the OP's

There is no derailment.....the subject is phosphate remover. Now, back to them.

Why PM's? If you have a good, strong argument for the use of phosphate remover, present it. As before, you will be challenged if your statements are incorrect.

If your algae reoccurs, I would suggest you brush your pool and be rid of it

Agreed, "advanced" is a better term.

I didn't mean PM was more appropriate to discuss phosphates, it was to discuss what what I've seen in relation to how this forum is handled. Certainly you agree this is not the place for such a discussion? No matter, I wish to move beyond that and stick to the subject.

Also, you seem to think I'm trying to make an argument for phosphate removers. I am not. I had an unusual situation pop up that may or may not be related to phosphates. I'm tying to learn how phosphates fit into the care of my pool and whether or not it's worth pursuing. I'd like to hear arguments from both sides, with each presenting their evidence to support their positions. Then I can decide for myself.

At this point I agree the next step to try is more frequent brushing. After all, it's free and doesn't add anything to the pool. If that works, then I've found my solution. Meanwhile, I'm still interested in learning more about phosphates and their impact, if any, on pool care.

 

[Saturn94]

Saturn94,

Reading this thread (and the original thread it came from) has my head spinning a bit, not to mention my lack of sleep this past 24 hours, so I'll try to share my thoughts and hope to get at least some of it right.

Recurring algae is always a tricky problem. It could be that you have black algae (although less likely in a vinyl pool) and you just don't know it OR you have algae hiding in the seems of your vinyl liner (a very common issue with algae and vinyl). Black algae, despite it's name, actually only looks black from a distance but is actually a dark green and yellow when you smear it on a white colored surface. Black algae has a waxy coating on it that is nearly impossible for chlorine to penetrate and it grows "roots" into pool surface (plaster being most affected by it) which act as anchors and growth points. It helps to be able to identify algae whenever possible as BA and Mustard Algae have different treatment regimens than your standard, run-of-the-mill blue-green algae. Usually elevated chlorine levels for longer periods of time help. However, I do remember a thread where the OP had recurring algae issues only to come to realize that the algae was in the vinyl seams and, even though he would pass SLAMs all the time, the algae always came back because the chlorine could not get to it in the seams. You might be someone who has to run their pool at an FC of 10% of CYA as opposed to 7.5% in order to keep it clear of algae; it's not unheard of.

As far as metal sequestrant use goes, it sounds like you are regular user of those products. HEDP is a good sequestrant but it does get oxidized and, when it is oxidized by chlorine, it breaks down into orthophosphates. So there are two strategies you can deploy to help mitigate phosphate introduction into your pool - one cheap and one expensive technique.

The cheap technique would be to get a Taylor phosphate test kit (K-1106) and test your water for phosphates one some regular basis like you would test for calcium hardness. That particular test will cost you about $40. Once you do this, you can then monitor your phosphate levels and see where you are at. You'd have to correlate your phosphate levels with your additions of sequestrant to see what the effects are and then start doing fresh water exchanges on a regular basis to lower your phosphate levels if they get too high.

The expensive technique would be to test for phosphates AND ALSO test for phosphonates. That would be the Taylor K-1583 and the K-1106 and it will set you back by about ~$140 in total. So why test for phosphonates? Well, the metal sequestrant you are using is a phosphonate and you are basically just adding it blind to your pool water with no testing so (A) you don't know at all what your HEDP level is and (B) you have no idea what an effective level is for your pool. It would be like adding a half gallon of bleach to your pool everyday without ever testing FC levels; you're just going on faith that it will work. If you know what your HEDP concentration is, then you can more accurately find an optimal amount to add which could then lead to lower overall phosphate levels when the HEDP breaks down.

A third option would be to switch to Jack's Magic Magenta Stuff which is a polyacrylic acid (PAA) based sequestrant. It's just as good as HEDP but, when it breaks down, it breaks down into CO2 and water (assuming full oxidation). Bad news is the Magenta Stuff is pricey.

So, do phosphates matter? Hard to say. What the literature says is that, below a 1000ppb, phosphates probably have little effect on algae growth rates. Somewhere between 1000ppb and 3000ppb is a grey zone. Over 3000ppb and the water is now nutrient-rich in phosphates giving algae plenty of food to chew on. Ultimately, past a certain level of phosphates, the reproduction rate limiting factors becomes sunlight exposure (hours of daylight) and temperature. Warm waters, especially those found in heated pools (solar heaters, etc) are very good at promoting algae reproduction.

A phosphate remover is not going to hurt anything, it's just not on my high-priority of "things to check" when algae comes knocking at your door. The phosphate removers are acidic solutions of lanthanum chloride (LaCl3). When it mixes in the water it very quickly forms lanthanum carbonate (La2(CO3)3) and that's the substance that clouds the water. As it sits in the water and gets sucked into the filter, the lanthanum carbonate reacts with phosphates to form insoluble lanthanum phosphate (LaPO4). People with sand filters often need to use a clarifier along with the phosphate remover because the precipitate is not easily removed by a sand filter. However, with your DE filter, you can skip the clarifier and just wait for your filter to get rid of it. A good phosphate remover (Orenda PR-10000 or Halosource SeaKlear Commercial Strength Phosphate Remover) will cost about $100 per gallon.

However, before you go trying phosphate removers, I would work on the other suggestions first and, if you can, try to get a handle on what your actual phosphate level is. You could be "off-the-charts" or not....good to know either way. Hey, you can make a game of it too and get your water perfectly balanced to TFP Recommended Levels and then bring a sample to the pool store for testing to see how badly they screw it up. They can also give you their guesstimate of what your phosphate levels are.

Sorry if my post is just treading old ground...i've had a long day and i'm quite tired....

Good luck,
Matt

I'm pretty sure it was garden variety algae since it didn't return the rest of the season. Btw, it hasn't earned the status of "reoccurring algae" yet since it's only appeared once. Hopefully it won't graduate to "reoccurring".

Yes, I've been using Jack's Magic Purple Stuff for years. When I first started using it I also bought their test kit so I knew how much active ingredient was in my pool. I discovered at that time the recommended dose on the bottle was just about right for maintaining the recommended level, so I stopped testing and just went with the suggested dose each week. Fast forward years later.....by now a lot of water has been replaced in the pool (we get quite a bit of rain here), so I decided to see if I still needed the sequestrant and how much if so. The stains started returning so I started using it again. However, I found I could get by on a little over half the recommended weekly dose and still remain stain free. So that's where I stand now with its use.

I'm very reluctant to switch to The Magenta Stuff since it's not compatible (according to Chemgeek) with polyquat algaecide, which I use for closing and when I go on vacation (in case the SWCG craps out while I'm gone...eek!).

I may try the Taylor kit out of couriosity (I can get it for less than $30). Like you said, it may help track how much impact the Purple Stuff is having on phosphate levels.

Btw, I greatly appreciate everyone's feedback.

 

[Patrick_B]

Why not try that, and order both Phosphate tests Matt described previously to find out? I think it would really give you peace of mind and help you decide on the best direction.

In your case, it's the best suggestion I can think of.

 

[Saturn94]

Saturn, I am no chemist by any stretch, but I deal with the conundrum of high phosphates from spent sequestrant versus my desire to switch to swg and ergo operate with lower phosphates

A test, a treatment, and a switch to jack's magenta is not an inexpensive proposition ... If the levels are higher than 3000 a partial water change might also be an option and you'd want to weigh the cost/benefit of each. Jacks purple IS formulated for salt, so I suspect it has considerably less phosphate than something like jacks pink.

My understanding is that the spent phosphate is not what's keeping your metal staining in check, its the active version. So I've been coming, slowly, to a personal opinion that at least for those on well, its not a bad idea to use a commercial level phosphate remover every few seasons...which of course and ironically would be followed up with a re treatment of sequestrant. If I weren't on well, a partial water change would have a cheaper, mitigating effect.

But one question I have is are you even on well water? If not, a partial drain might reduce your metal level to under the .3 ppm that causes staining. Then you could dial back the volume of Jacks purple, you'd have reduced any possible phosphate level, and you might have some idea if that was affecting your algae sensitivity.

In your case, after several years of not having the experience, it might suggest that there's been a build up over time.

Just a thought on options to consider/experiment with

Fortunately I'm on city water (I'll update my sig). Ben from PF walked me through a bucket test to check for metals and it came up negative. Still though, when I run the SWCG faint staining will start to appear on the steps (there's a return in the steps, btw) if I don't use a sequestrant. The only possible metal sources are the city water and/or impurities in the salt (pool installer says it's impurities in the salt causing this), neither of which can be avoided. So I just accepted my pool needs some sequestrant.

Keep the great posts coming.

 

[Saturn94]

Why not try that, and order both Phosphate tests Matt described previously to find out? I think it would really give you peace of mind and help you decide on the best direction.

In your case, it's the best suggestion I can think of.

I'm seriously considering trying the Taylor kit, even if to just satisfy my curiosity (I'll take a look at the other rest kit as well).

However, I'm going to start with the simplest, cheapest suggested solution first (more brushing) and go from there if needed.

All this pool talk is getting me anxious to open! Bring on the heat and sunshine!

 

[JoyfulNoise]

Yes, you should not use PAA (Jacks Magenta stuff) if you use polyquat. PAA is a negatively charged polyanion which is a great sequestrant for catching positively charged metal ions. Unfortunately polyquat-60 is a positively charged (polycationic) material. The two will attract one another and cause a giant cloudy mess.

If you only use at closing you may be able to still use the magenta stuff, you'd just have to make sure it's mostly gone by season's end. Hard to tell unless you buy the $200 K-1190 testkit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

 

[Saturn94]

Yes, you should not use PAA (Jacks Magenta stuff) if you use polyquat. PAA is a negatively charged polyanion which is a great sequestrant for catching positively charged metal ions. Unfortunately polyquat-60 is a positively charged (polycationic) material. The two will attract one another and cause a giant cloudy mess.

If you only use at closing you may be able to still use the magenta stuff, you'd just have to make sure it's mostly gone by season's end. Hard to tell unless you buy the $200 K-1190 testkit


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk,16k gal SWG pool (All Pentair), QuadDE100 Filter, Taylor K-2006

For me The Magenta Stuff seems more trouble than it's worth.

 

[boston62]

I don't know if this info might help, but I was told where ever water goes, you must circulate water through it. I think closing off the main drain might hurt your situation,.since it will not have water circulation.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

 

[Saturn94]

I don't know if this info might help, but I was told where ever water goes, you must circulate water through it. I think closing off the main drain might hurt your situation,.since it will not have water circulation.

Sent from my SM-G900P using Tapatalk

I did think of that, so I never completely closed it.

 

[PAGirl]

Were you brushing regularly? It is an often overlooked important piece of the pool care puzzle that help keep algae at bay.

 

[Marcion333]

I if were you I would open the drain back up to get the pool circulation to the way it was before the algae growth, keep brushing, and ensure that your chlorine level is on the high side of normal. If you're lucky you won't have to SLAM. Good luck.

 

[Saturn94]

Were you brushing regularly? It is an often overlooked important piece of the pool care puzzle that help keep algae at bay.

No. I relied on the Polaris for that which has always worked in the past. This is the first time algae has appeared on the wall, and hopefully the last.

I if were you I would open the drain back up to get the pool circulation to the way it was before the algae growth, keep brushing, and ensure that your chlorine level is on the high side of normal. If you're lucky you won't have to SLAM. Good luck.

That's the plan this season.