And I mentioned before.....I'm definitely due for a filter clean which I plan on doing this Sunday. Any chance this could be related....as in, just not enough water pressure to push the air out?
Airlock in secondary (cleaner) pump
- Thread starter Flyguppy
- Start date
- May 3, 2007
- 17,020
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
The pressure you listed earlier seems a little high for that rpm and if the flow is restricted too much by the filter, then that could be an issue. It might be a good idea to clean the filter just to eliminate that as a possible cause.
Also, could take a picture of the entire pad equipment?
Also, could take a picture of the entire pad equipment?
I would tap into the return above ground. The way it's plumbed in not pushing water into the pump.
You're tapping into the return below ground and probably getting some venturi effect.
You're tapping into the return below ground and probably getting some venturi effect.
- May 3, 2007
- 17,020
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
How would that happen without an actual venturi and where would it be drawing in air if the system is sealed?Jamesw said:
However, a backwash valve has been know to act like a venturi because the internals closely resemble a venturi shape and they can draw in air from a bad seal. I would believe that air could be sucked in there but I can't see how that would occur underground.
Plus the location of where you tap into a pipe is irrelevant as water will seek it's own pressure. It is a bit like saying a solar panels on the roof won't prime because it is above the pump. The air gets pushed up and out by the water because of the main pump pressure. However, if the water pressure is too low you can have a problem just like you would with solar but we already confirmed that the pressure is sufficient to push the water up the pipe and out of the pipe feeding the booster.
I don't understand this either because the pressure at the booster will be identical if you plumb it either way (except for dynamic head loss). Remember that static head loss works both ways. When water drops in elevation, it gains pressure and when it rises in elevation, it loses pressure. Net net, there is no static head loss just because you plumb the feed pipe under ground.
The impeller looks like it has some heat damage. It's hard to tell for sure. I think that I would replace it and the seal.
The return is under ground and the Polaris suction Ts into the line. Since the line is low, the pressure might not be enough to push water higher than the top of top of the highest part of the Polaris pressure hose.
You won't get a full venturi, the return water is flowing perpendicular to the Polaris suction line. That will lower the pressure somewhat.
I think that the way the suction Ts straight up allows air to get in the suction line.
The bottom line is that there is no water coming out of the polaris wall fitting with the pump running and it does not seem to be clogged.
You can certainly try other things, but in my opinion, you're not going to get it to work reliably without replumbing.
The return is under ground and the Polaris suction Ts into the line. Since the line is low, the pressure might not be enough to push water higher than the top of top of the highest part of the Polaris pressure hose.
You won't get a full venturi, the return water is flowing perpendicular to the Polaris suction line. That will lower the pressure somewhat.
I think that the way the suction Ts straight up allows air to get in the suction line.
The bottom line is that there is no water coming out of the polaris wall fitting with the pump running and it does not seem to be clogged.
You can certainly try other things, but in my opinion, you're not going to get it to work reliably without replumbing.
- May 3, 2007
- 17,020
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
But the pressure is higher the lower you go so I don't understand this comment. I as said before, the static head loss offsets from high to low back to high elevation so there is no difference where you tap the pipe. The pressure into the booster will be about the same.
Any tee or any fitting will lower the pressure within the fitting due to head loss. These are well known and predictable. That is not the same as a venturi. This is a venturi:
Note the sloped walls. Without those, there is no venturi effect and Tees don't have sloped walls.
Ok, that makes sense. The way it's plumbed seems odd. If they can make it work without replumbing, then that's good.
If they can't get it to work, I still think replumbing it above ground might help.
Maybe have the Polaris T in straight and make the return T off to force more water towards the booster.
If they can't get it to work, I still think replumbing it above ground might help.
Maybe have the Polaris T in straight and make the return T off to force more water towards the booster.
- May 3, 2007
- 17,020
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
The other thing is that the booster has been working fine for 4 years and it only recently had a problem. So something has changed.
Ok, I guess that I'm out of ideas other than to replumb.
Maybe it doesn't make sense but that's what I would do.
Where the return has a 90, replace it with a T and have the T work as a 90 for the return. That would force more water towards the booster pump.
Certainly try to avoid replumbing if possible.
Maybe there has always been insufficient pressure to push water through the booster. This might not be an issue as long as the line is full of water.
However, if air gets in the line, the booster can't clear the air because it's not self priming.
Maybe a suction side air leak is new.
Maybe it doesn't make sense but that's what I would do.
Where the return has a 90, replace it with a T and have the T work as a 90 for the return. That would force more water towards the booster pump.
Certainly try to avoid replumbing if possible.
Maybe there has always been insufficient pressure to push water through the booster. This might not be an issue as long as the line is full of water.
However, if air gets in the line, the booster can't clear the air because it's not self priming.
Maybe a suction side air leak is new.
- May 3, 2007
- 17,020
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Flyguppy,
Did you ever fix this problem? Could be where the air is coming from.
Normal for this much DE in bottom of filter?
Did you ever fix this problem? Could be where the air is coming from.
Normal for this much DE in bottom of filter?
If there is water pressure on the inlet of the booster, as we have concluded there is through multiple tests, this pressure will push out any air. Unless of course something is significantly restricting flow.JamesW said:
OP stated earlier there is no air in the pump basket or even the filter. But I do suspect an air leak somewhere.
If there is good pressure into the booster, there should be some water coming out of the wall fitting even if there is a 90 % clog.
I think that there has to be an important piece of information missing but I don't know what it could be.
Maybe there's a check valve on the booster return under ground?
Maybe the booster Ts into the wrong line.
Maybe the pump is trying to run in Spillover mode where all water is going to the spa.
- May 3, 2007
- 17,020
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
A possibility for the restriction could be the wall fitting. I think there is a restriction placed in that fitting that can easily get blocked:
Might be worthwhile disassembly the entire assembly and cleaning it. And flushing out the line without the fitting.
Might be worthwhile disassembly the entire assembly and cleaning it. And flushing out the line without the fitting.
Possibly a clog in the fitting or elsewhere. Definitely worth checking. However, it seems to work OK when it catches prime. I think that there would have to be an almost complete clog which would keep the pump from working at all.
A check valve on the line could explain it. Even though there is no reason for a check valve, there might be one. However, the OP can back flush the line from the wall to the pump, so that makes a check valve unlikely.
The flex hose on the booster suction looks odd, kind of twisted or deformed. Maybe the inner lining of the hose has collapsed.
Maybe insufficient flow due to a dirty filter. However, it does not seem to be the case. If there is detectable water flow out of the regular pool returns, then there should be detectable flow from the wall fitting with the booster off.
Cleaning the filter and increasing the flow might resolve the problem because it seems that the pressure going into the pump is right on the border of creating any flow at all. I think that this still points to a flaw in how the booster is plumbed.
Maybe air in the lines, but even then, it would get pushed out through the wall fitting and the pump would catch prime.
If there was solar and the booster was tapped into the solar return and the VRV was gulping lots of air, then that could be an issue. Water falling from the roof wouldn’t have a lot of pressure and the air could get in the booster.
If the booster had a bad seal it would usually leak water, but if there was insufficient pressure going into the booster, then it could suck in air until the booster caught prime and then it would leak. The seal and impeller look bad, I would change them both.
I really think that you have to get to where you get a steady flow out of the booster wall return, even with the pump running at lower speeds.
A check valve on the line could explain it. Even though there is no reason for a check valve, there might be one. However, the OP can back flush the line from the wall to the pump, so that makes a check valve unlikely.
The flex hose on the booster suction looks odd, kind of twisted or deformed. Maybe the inner lining of the hose has collapsed.
Maybe insufficient flow due to a dirty filter. However, it does not seem to be the case. If there is detectable water flow out of the regular pool returns, then there should be detectable flow from the wall fitting with the booster off.
Cleaning the filter and increasing the flow might resolve the problem because it seems that the pressure going into the pump is right on the border of creating any flow at all. I think that this still points to a flaw in how the booster is plumbed.
Maybe air in the lines, but even then, it would get pushed out through the wall fitting and the pump would catch prime.
If there was solar and the booster was tapped into the solar return and the VRV was gulping lots of air, then that could be an issue. Water falling from the roof wouldn’t have a lot of pressure and the air could get in the booster.
If the booster had a bad seal it would usually leak water, but if there was insufficient pressure going into the booster, then it could suck in air until the booster caught prime and then it would leak. The seal and impeller look bad, I would change them both.
I really think that you have to get to where you get a steady flow out of the booster wall return, even with the pump running at lower speeds.
I know what your saying about the suction being deformed. I replaced that just about 4 weeks ago.... Thought the same thing, that it wasn't getting enough water.
Now the new hose is deformed a bit. Like it's sucking as hard as it can... No water.... Starts to deform?
Now the new hose is deformed a bit. Like it's sucking as hard as it can... No water.... Starts to deform?
That DE post was from a previous home. Haven't taken the filter apart at the new house yet....
Thanks
Ok, how long have you been at this property?
Has this been an issue since you moved in?
The suction going directly into the ground is odd. It's almost always Teed in above ground.
I really think that there is an issue with how it's plumbed or a significant blockage on the suction side. Maybe dig down to see what's down there.
Has this been an issue since you moved in?
The suction going directly into the ground is odd. It's almost always Teed in above ground.
I really think that there is an issue with how it's plumbed or a significant blockage on the suction side. Maybe dig down to see what's down there.
Been here just over a year.
Issue, at least that I've noticed, probably the last 3-4 months or so? Not real clear on that.
- May 3, 2007
- 17,020
- Pool Size
- 20000
- Surface
- Plaster
- Chlorine
- Salt Water Generator
- SWG Type
- Hayward Aqua Rite (T-15)
Have you tried removing the wall fittings (all of them) to see if the flow improves out of that pipe?
I should have asked this earlier but when you removed the booster suction line and ran the main pump, how much water came out of that line? It should have been much more than garden hose fully open. If pointed upwards, how high would the water have reached?
Can you also post a picture of the return side plumbing? The booster pipe ties in somewhere and it might be above ground.
Just to keep this updated....
Got the filter cleaned this afternoon. Just put everything back together. Got cleaner pump running, all OK.
After turning cleaner pump off, pulled cleaner to empty bag.....lo' and behold I have the familiar trickle of water coming from the cleaner jets like I'm used to seeing.
Hopefully that is a good sign, as I have not seen that while I've been having this issue.
Will keep an eye on things obviously. In the end, I hope it's just an overly dirty filter.
I appreciate ALL the help and suggestions.
THANK YOU!
Got the filter cleaned this afternoon. Just put everything back together. Got cleaner pump running, all OK.
After turning cleaner pump off, pulled cleaner to empty bag.....lo' and behold I have the familiar trickle of water coming from the cleaner jets like I'm used to seeing.
Hopefully that is a good sign, as I have not seen that while I've been having this issue.
Will keep an eye on things obviously. In the end, I hope it's just an overly dirty filter.
I appreciate ALL the help and suggestions.
THANK YOU!