Air Suckage

[NLITP]

When my pool pump starts (at 7:00am), there are lots of bubbles gushing out of the returns for about a minute before settling down. After the pump turns off (even hours later), you can hear a "glug, glug, glug" coming from the pool filter. It sounds like there is water being emptied from a hole in its side (though I've found no water leakage from the filter). BTW - the filter is only a few years old.


I am assuming I am getting air into the system on the suction side. So, I first removed my leaf canister (to take it out of the equation), but the issue has not changed. I have an old Hayward pump that was here when I bought the house 2 years ago, so it may be due for an o-ring change. I just purchased the kit (
Hayward SPXHKIT2 Quick Pump Repair Replacement Kit for Hayward Super II Pool and Spa Pumps), which includes: strainer cover O-ring, housing gasket, seal assembly, diffuser gasket and Jack's lube. I also ordered a new lid (since my clear lid has become opaque due to old age).


Changing the pump lid and it's o-ring will be my next attempt to fix the issue. Then I need to look at what the other parts are for and see if they could be playing a role if it still sucking air somewhere.

Does this sound like a reasonable start to addressing my problem? Am I missing something I could check for before my pump parts show up in a week?

Thanks!

 

[mknauss]

The pump lid is the most likely culprit. It should be pulling quite a bit of air when the pump is on if it is that severe when you turn the pump off.

Take care.

 

[Jimrahbe]

n,

Sounds like you are off to a good start...

Sounds to me like an air leak that is allowing your filter to drain back into your pool. Most likely on the suction side, but not always. Any air leak in either the suction or pressure side will allow the filter to drain out. Of course most pressure side leaks would be spewing water, but not all ways. I had a filter air relieve valve that leaked no water but did allow air back in when the pump was off. I would also assume that a multiport valve could have an internal leak that would not be visible.

Good luck with your "leak hunt"...

Jim R.

 

[NLITP]

Thanks, you guys! Please let it be the pump lid, please let it be the pump lid, please...

 

[NLITP]

Bad news... really bad new, I think.

I changed out the lid's o-ring, lubed and replaced... no change.

On the suction side, I have a very short piece of PVC running from the pump into a Jandy 3-way valve. One side pulls water from the skimmer, the other pulls from both the main drain and the vacuum port. If I close off the main drain/vacuum port... no bubbles in the pump. If I close off the skimmer, the pressure reading on the filter drops to ZERO and air rushes in like crazy... I mean the pump fills with air in a matter of seconds. I tried putting magic lube around the few joints above ground, but I can't tell it is sucking any into the joint, so I'm guessing the leak is below ground.

This has probably been this way for some time, but has gotten worse. To get my Aquanaut 200 running at the correct speed, I've had the "bad" side closed off somewhat, enough that the air bubbles seen through the lid of the pump are very small. And before I replaced the pump lid a few days ago, I couldn't see through the lid - it was opaque from sun damage.

Any thoughts on anything I'm missing? I live in the Phoenix area, so any fellow Phoenicians care to recommend someone to call to address the issue, I would really appreciate it.

 

[AftonJeeper]

It very well could be a leaky pipe but you should check the skimmer basket to make sure it isn't the one sucking air. If I turn off my main drain and one of my skimmers my pump will suck the skimmer dry immediately at 3450rpm.

 

[NLITP]

Bubbles in the filter w/pressure drop occurs when I'm mainly using the main drain/vacuum port. So, the skimmer is not doing much at all at this time.

** But, I checked anyway... and it is as expected... when air is being sucked into the pump via main drain/vacuum port the skimmer is not doing much of anything.

 

[mknauss]

Are you seeing a water loss? I say this because if the air leak is from the main drain/vac side, if it was below the water level of the pool, you would most likely have a noticeable water loss as water would seep out when the pump is not running. So if no water loss, your leak would be above the water level, and thus may be very near your equipment pad.

Just another rabbit to chase --

Take care, and good luck.

 

[Jimrahbe]

n,

Possible of course, but I doubt your vacuum and main drain are on the same line.

My guess is that your main drain is connected into the bottom of your skimmer and that the valve controls just the vacuum port..

I am "assuming" that your vacuum has a port in the side wall of your pool.

Your problem sounds to me like you are sucking air through your vacuum hose as it floats in your pool..

If you remove you skimmer basket, how many holes do you see? If two holes, are they both open or is one of them plugged?

If your main drain and vacuum are really tied together, then you may be lucky and find the they are connected right below the pipes at your equipment pad.. If me, I'd carefully dig down a foot or and see what the pipes look like.

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[mknauss]

Good point Jim. It would be odd, and difficult I would think, for the main drain and vac lines to be tied together. I did not think that through!!

Thanks --

 

[NLITP]

Not that I've measured, but I see no apparent water loss from the pool. Maybe I'll get some incense sticks and see if that shows a a leak above ground. Thanks!

 

[NLITP]

n,

Possible of course, but I doubt your vacuum and main drain are on the same line.

My guess is that your main drain is connected into the bottom of your skimmer and that the valve controls just the vacuum port..

I am "assuming" that your vacuum has a port in the side wall of your pool.

Your problem sounds to me like you are sucking air through your vacuum hose as it floats in your pool..

If you remove you skimmer basket, how many holes do you see? If two holes, are they both open or is one of them plugged?

If your main drain and vacuum are really tied together, then you may be lucky and find the they are connected right below the pipes at your equipment pad.. If me, I'd carefully dig down a foot or and see what the pipes look like.

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks! I believe you are correct about the skimmer and main drain being on the same line. Your assumption of the vacuum port being in the side wall of the pool is also correct.

When I remove the skimmer basket, I see two holes. Both appear to be open.

To test the "air suckage via vacuum pipe" theory, I could turn on the pump and adjust the 3-way valve to the point where air in the pump lid is apparent. Then have someone else submerge the vacuum piping that is above water. If air bubbles cease when viewing the pump lid, success!!! I'll have to wait until the wife returns in an hour, but can't wait to try it out.

Thanks for the suggestion to look at the vacuum hose. Since the air rushing in when the valve is set to 100% vacuum is so "severe", I was assuming there would have to be a very large hole in the pipe if that were the case. But, I was assuming...

Thanks again... I'll update in an hour or so.

 

[NLITP]

Ok... so I was able to test the "air suckage via vacuum pipe" theory without the wife. I took a single piece of vacuum hose and attached the vacuum to it. Since this piece of hose has the weights on it, the hose and vacuum stay completely submerged. I performed the switch from "mostly MD/skimmer" towards "mostly vacuum" and the air still comes rushing in still. Oh, well. It was a good suggestion.

Is digging my next alternative? The distance from where the pipe goes under ground to the vacuum port is probably less than 6 feet, but most of it is under concrete decking. If digging is next, my best case scenario is that the leak is with the joint directly below where the pipe is buried, I guess(?).

 

[Jimrahbe]

n,

Ok, if you have two open holes in the bottom of your skimmer, then the main drain is one of them and the other is the skimmer itself. Unless you have a space ship looking "diverter" under your skimmer basket, then the main drain is not being used at all..

That means your valve is selecting between the Skimmer and your Vacuum port...

I want to make sure that you are actually having a real problem... With a 2 HP single speed pump, I'm not at all sure that it can suck enough water through the vacuum port alone. In my case I had old pool where when I tried to turn the vacuum on full the pump would just run out of water and cavitate.. I would have to run it something like you are doing now... where you have to mix some of the skimmer water with some of the vacuum water. The slower I moved the valve the more vacuum water I could get.

View this link... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjH4_64i77VAhXDg1QKHck3AxIQtwIILDAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3Dptw4RIAMI2A&usg=AFQjCNGZBdxPgy4DDWocA4DCrFpBjibSzw

And this one.... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwjH4_64i77VAhXDg1QKHck3AxIQtwIIJjAA&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.youtube.com%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DV9sotvJ0ioQ&usg=AFQjCNGzReVeoeNkm9FXxZqaN1NvycMd0A

You very well may have an air leak, but tell me more about what caused you to go down this path??? Are you just trying to remove an "air bubble" or is the vacuum not working at all or what???

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[NLITP]

n,

Ok, if you have two open holes in the bottom of your skimmer, then the main drain is one of them and the other is the skimmer itself. Unless you have a space ship looking "diverter" under your skimmer basket, then the main drain is not being used at all..

That means your valve is selecting between the Skimmer and your Vacuum port...

I want to make sure that you are actually having a real problem... With a 2 HP single speed pump, I'm not at all sure that it can suck enough water through the vacuum port alone. In my case I had old pool where when I tried to turn the vacuum on full the pump would just run out of water and cavitate.. I would have to run it something like you are doing now... where you have to mix some of the skimmer water with some of the vacuum water. The slower I moved the valve the more vacuum water I could get.

View this link... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...IAMI2A&usg=AFQjCNGZBdxPgy4DDWocA4DCrFpBjibSzw

And this one.... https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...vJ0ioQ&usg=AFQjCNGzReVeoeNkm9FXxZqaN1NvycMd0A

You very well may have an air leak, but tell me more about what caused you to go down this path??? Are you just trying to remove an "air bubble" or is the vacuum not working at all or what???

Thanks,

Jim R.

Thanks, Jimrahbe. You've been very helpful. I attached a photo of the inside of my skimmer to the end of this post. It appears that I have 2 holes that are open and I don't see a diverter. Wouldn't it be odd if my main drain is being by-passed? It has seemed to me over the past few summers that leaves seem to collect near the main drain, so I was assuming it was working. I should be able to swim to the bottom and check to see if it will draw a leaf to it for confirmation, yes?

The reason I started looking into this is best described in my first post to this thread. What alerted me to "an issue" is in the morning when the pump turns on (after being off for the last 22 hours), air bubbles are gushing out of the returns and continues to do so for a full minute or longer before returning to "normal" (no bubbles from the returns). The plumbing is all shaking during this time. Additionally, once the pump has turned off, I can come back a few hours later and hear a "glug, glug, glug" noise coming from the filter... which sounds like the filter is emptying. I can see no water leakage from the filter itself.

I watched the cavitation video links you posted. However, is there a way to determine if the air entering the pump is due to cavitation or an air leak? I tried taking a video just now, but the sun is half on/half off the equipment, so the outcome was poor. I'll try to do it later when it's in full shade.

 

[Jimrahbe]

Thanks, Jimrahbe. You've been very helpful. I attached a photo of the inside of my skimmer to the end of this post. It appears that I have 2 holes that are open and I don't see a diverter. Wouldn't it be odd if my main drain is being by-passed? It has seemed to me over the past few summers that leaves seem to collect near the main drain, so I was assuming it was working. I should be able to swim to the bottom and check to see if it will draw a leaf to it for confirmation, yes?

The reason I started looking into this is best described in my first post to this thread. What alerted me to "an issue" is in the morning when the pump turns on (after being off for the last 22 hours), air bubbles are gushing out of the returns and continues to do so for a full minute or longer before returning to "normal" (no bubbles from the returns). The plumbing is all shaking during this time. Additionally, once the pump has turned off, I can come back a few hours later and hear a "glug, glug, glug" noise coming from the filter... which sounds like the filter is emptying. I can see no water leakage from the filter itself.

I watched the cavitation video links you posted. However, is there a way to determine if the air entering the pump is due to cavitation or an air leak? I tried taking a video just now, but the sun is half on/half off the equipment, so the outcome was poor. I'll try to do it later when it's in full shade.

Your main drain is not working if you do not have a diverter.... And, to be honest, it matters very little. There are thousands of pools without a working main drain, and they are all just fine.

It is impossible to tell if a main drain is working by looking or feeling the suction. It is just not strong enough..

To troubleshoot, I would fully shut off the vacuum port, turn your pump off and see if you can still hear the glug, glug from your filter. Then try it with the skimmer fully closed and listen for the glug, glug.. You can also point the closed portion of the valve back toward the pump, which should turn off both the skimmer and the vacuum port. Check for the glug, glug. (Do not run your pump with the input blocked off)

If the filter still leaks down, it is a sign you have an air leak... we will just have to figure out where... (One step at a time... )

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[NLITP]

Your main drain is not working if you do not have a diverter.... And, to be honest, it matters very little. There are thousands of pools without a working main drain, and they are all just fine. It is impossible to tell if a main drain is working by looking or feeling the suction. It is just not strong enough..

Ah... good to know.

To troubleshoot, I would fully shut off the vacuum port, turn your pump off and see if you can still hear the glug, glug from your filter. Then try it with the skimmer fully closed and listen for the glug, glug.. You can also point the closed portion of the valve back toward the pump, which should turn off both the skimmer and the vacuum port. Check for the glug, glug. (Do not run your pump with the input blocked off)

I will try these 3 configurations (completely understand not to run pump with the input blocked) and check for "glugging". Hopefully I'll have something meaningful to post by tomorrow. Really appreciate the help.

 

[NLITP]

I'm afraid I don't have any "ah ha's" to share... some information from above is repeated below for clarity (I hope).

After the pump is turned off from its 2 hour run, there is the occasional "glug" sound coming from the filter... as if the filter is being slowly drained of water. If I wait an hour or two, it is more pronounced. At this point (with the pump turned off), if I turn the 3 way valve on the suction side to 100% vacuum port or to 100% skimmer, it seems to make no difference as to the "glugging" sound coming from the filter. BTW - this valve will NOT allow me to set it to block the input. I guess that is a safety measure, but I was planning on blocking the input with the pump off to see if it made a difference.

As mentioned previously, I've completely ruled out any air suction coming from the vacuum hose or leaf canister. I ran the pump in the morning for it's normal 2 hour run with a single piece of hose connected to the vacuum port and the vacuum hanging off of it (suspended above the pool floor). In this manner, the hose and vacuum are completely submerged. This morning, when the pool pump was turned on, I got the roughly 1 minute of bubbles rushing out of the returns again. The 3-way-valve setting is at the 10-oclock position favoring the skimmer. After the 1 minute of bubbles rushing out of the returns dissipates, there are no bubbles visible in the pump with the 10-oclock 3-way valve position.

One additional note... over time (the course of a year or so) I've had to move the 3-way valve setting - beginning at the 2 o'clock position (favoring the vacuum port) to where it is now - the 10 o'clock position (favoring the skimmer). In the beginning, at the 2 o'clock position, the vacuum would run at 9 wheel revolutions per minute. But over time, it would get faster and start climbing the walls and eventually suck air once it reached the top. So, I'd have to dial back the 3-way (towards more skimmer suction) to get the speed back to 9 revolutions per minute. At this rate, I'll have to dial it to nearly 100% skimmer by next year!

I can see no water leaking from the pressure side, though there are 1 or 2 joints that look "dodgy", but again... don't see any water escaping with the pump running.

I have yet to try burning incense to attempt to find a suction leak, but beyond that... is there anything else I should try?

 

[Jimrahbe]

N,

If this were my pool, I would think about rebuilding the Jandy valve the selects between the Skimmer and vacuum port. Basically you just install all new O-Rings.. Should not be too hard or expensive even if it cures nothing...

Not sure how well it would work, but you can try using real thin food wrap to temporarly wrap the any valves and connections in an attempt to find the air leak when the filter is draining. As an example.. you can wrap the air release valve and see if the draining stops.. etc...

I can't see the pics anymore... how are the pipes connected to the pump.. If they are just screwed in, this can also be a leak source..

Thanks,

Jim R.

 

[NLITP]

N,

If this were my pool, I would think about rebuilding the Jandy valve the selects between the Skimmer and vacuum port. Basically you just install all new O-Rings.. Should not be too hard or expensive even if it cures nothing...

Not sure how well it would work, but you can try using real thin food wrap to temporarly wrap the any valves and connections in an attempt to find the air leak when the filter is draining. As an example.. you can wrap the air release valve and see if the draining stops.. etc...

I can't see the pics anymore... how are the pipes connected to the pump.. If they are just screwed in, this can also be a leak source..

Thanks,

Jim R.

Sorry... I missed this post. Thanks for the additional tips.

I am happy to report that today, I believe the air leak (pressure side is resolved).

I had not cleaned my filter in April/May (like I normally do before pool season)... the pressure gauge on the filter hasn't moved from 10lbs, so thought I could skate by. But, since the leak is decently severe (over 1 full minute of plumbing pipes shaking around along with all the bubbles at the return), thought I'd clean it now, in hopes it was leaking via the filter's o-ring. So, I made sure to thoroughly clean the area where the o-ring sits on the filter, lube the metal-reenforced o-ring with Magic Lube and cleaned the metal clamp on the inside where it meets the filter housing for the best chance of a tight seal.

After it was all back together I ran the pump for about 5 minutes. This morning, I turned on the pump and only a few bubbles (lasting less than 10 seconds) were seen coming up from the return in the spa and a few in the returns in the pool. That's a 99% improvement. It's possible that tomorrow I'll have none!

So, on to part #2 of my issue: the suction side leak (if there is one). You previously mentioned it could be cavitation from the pump being oversized. In any case, I have incense sticks to burn near the few joints between the pump and before the pipes go underground. If I don't find any suction leaks with that method, I may try replacing the o-rings in the 3-way. BTW - the pipes coming from the the skimmer and vacuum side both feed into a single 3-way and then from this 3-way directly into the pump w/no screw-in type joints.

** As far as the pictures in the post go, I'll have to look into it. I have them on Google Photos, but maybe they don't allow linked photos in forum posts(?).