Air bubbles do not cease when the solar is on

[mas985]

1 - Was that really the solar sensor and not the water temperature sensor. The solar sensor is suppose to go on the panels in direct sunlight.

2 - 15 PSI & 7" hg, was that with the solar engaged?

3 - A pump should not overheat or shut down when the pressure gets high. They are made to work over the entire head curve. That pump should work fine up to 30 PSI although I would not recommend that as standard operation.

4 - Not really. I was more interested in what the suction and filter pressure was with and without solar.

5 - That should have helped quite a bit but evidently not enough.

6 & 7 - That is probably a good enough test. The point is that with a little bit more pressure, it would fix the problem. What was the filter pressure and suction when the bubbles completly stopped?

 

[Magnew]

Oh, boy. In my enthusiasm to fix the suction side leak, I removed the suction gauge. This fixed the suction leak, but I failed to note the pressure and suction when the bubbles completely ceased.

I should have said the water temperature sensor, not the solar sensor. I am an amateur and that is shining through!

The 15 psi and 7 hg was normal operation with the solar NOT engaged.

Should I worry about the pump shutting down and do something about it? EDIT: I may have had a quick power outage at that time as I see some flashing clocks in the house.

I will be glad to reinstall the suction gauge and record the proper information to report back, as I really, really appreciate the help!

I am doing this on my vacation and I really enjoy this kind of thing, even though I have some issues!

Mike

A couple of other things I would like your opinion on:

Would I improve my situation enough to justify the re-piping from the filter to the solar control valve with 2 inch pipe and flapper check valve?
Also the same question on the suction side re: change to 2" piping from the jandy valves to the pump?

 

[mas985]

The 15 psi and 7 hg was normal operation with the solar NOT engaged.

You has said earlier that normal operation was at 10 PSI. Is this with all of the suction ports open?

Should I worry about the pump shutting down and do something about it

Yes, if it keeps happening, then there may be something wrong with the pump and/or motor. It is a new pump so it shouldn't have problems but sometimes new pumps do have issues.



The suction gauge can create air leaks so if you wrap it with teflon tape, that can help some while taking measurements. If you do take more measurements, here is what would be useful:

First set the suction and return valves to where you normally have them set. Then measure PSI and suction with and without solar. Let me know if the pressure measurements are being done at the pump or the filter. There is a difference and I need to know which method you are using.

Next, set the valves for where you did not have any bubbles then measure pressure and suction once again with and without solar.

There should be 4 pairs of pressure and suction measurements.

From this, I can hopefully give you some options for solving the air problems.

 

[Magnew]

The earlier PSI reported for normal operation was not with all suction ports open, but with the pool main drain closed, skimmer partially closed, and the vacuum line full open. My filter has loaded up a little bit from the totally clean reading I gave previously.

I will reinstall the suction gauge tomorrow and give a full report on the proper readings. I had about 10 wraps of teflon tape on the thing, plus Rectoseal, and it still leaked. I will try again. I will clean the filter before I do all this.

Really, really appreciate it!

 

[mas985]

The earlier PSI reported for normal operation was not with all suction ports open, but with the pool main drain closed, skimmer partially closed, and the vacuum line full open.

So are you normally running the cleaner and it takes shutting off the main drain and skimmer to operate properly? I assume that if you open the suction ports that the cleaner stops working.

Is the main drain and skimmer on a separate valve which then valves with the cleaner? If so, you might be able to automate that valve so that when solar turns on, the skimmer and main drain automatically open. However, this means you won't get good cleaning until solar is off.

There are still other options that may help such as replacing the check valve, going with smaller diameter returns or even lowering the VRV further. It depends on where you are willing to compromise and how much work you are willing to do. But the measurements will help determine the best options.

 

[Magnew]

PS: A point of clarification. I stated early on that all plumbing is 1.5 inches. Not true. All plumbing for the pool, thru the valves, to the pump and filter, and from the filter to the solar control valve is 1.5 inches. All the plumbing from the solar valve to and from the solar panels is 2 inches. FWIW

 

[Magnew]

Good morning! Here is my report...

I reinstalled the suction gauge--this time without suction leaks. I thoroughly cleaned the filter, too.

Normal operations for me is vacuum line full open, main drain closed, skimmer partially closed, waterfall on minimal setting, full flow on the returns to the pool. I set everything up for that and here are my readings. Pressure readings are at the filter, not the pump:

Normal ops/solar OFF 8" 8psi
Normal ops/solar ON 5.75 " 11 psi

I was then going to set the valves as I did yesterday to eliminate all bubbles when solar on (which was spa off, all suction valves open), however I had ZERO bubbles under the first configuration!

What a difference a squeaky clean filter makes! I still want to do whatever else I can do to make this system optimal, including the flapper check valve, replumbing with 2" pipe after the jandy to the pump, from the pump to the filter, and then from the filter to the solar control valve, if this would make a difference? Maybe reducing the outlet size of a couple of the return eyes in the pool, too?

Anxious to hear your thoughts, and continually grateful,
Mike

 

[mas985]

I forgot to mention that a clean filter will help as well. But that is good news!

You may just want to run it this way for a while and see how it works out. Based upon my calculations, it might be marginal right now and with a little filter pressure rise, it could push it into suck in air again.

As for additional mods, here are some of the trade offs:

Change check valve to flapper - Improves efficiency and will give you a little more margin for the filter getting dirty. Downside is cost and time to do the change. Change only the one after the filter since the one post solar may actually be helping you some. If you change that one too, then you might have to change the eyeballs as well.

Change out eyeballs - This will also give you bit more margin for the filter and will improve your surface water flow and perhaps skimming. More water movement past the skimmers. Downside is it will reduce efficiency a little bit but If you change the first check valve, then you might want to hold off on this until you experience a problem again, if ever.

Lower VRV - This does not seem necessary anymore as the first two options will probably prevent air from being sucked in.

Another option is to leave things as they are and when you see air comming out of the returns, you know it is time to clean the filter. :lol:

Changing the pipe size on the pad may help a little bit. The biggest issue is the suction side valve settings is really reducing flow by a lot and probably causing most of the issues.

 

[Magnew]

Thanks Mark.

I calculate that I have 27.52 TDH and 67 gpm Solar OFF
...and 31.91 TDH and 61 gpm Solar ON

...but with a totally clean filter only!

I would gladly do the new check valve at the filter and change all the pipe size at the pump, if I was going to improve my position by even 1 foot of TDH. Do you think it would?

By changing the one foot of pipe on the suction side, the one that comes from the last Jandy valve to the pump (with the union), from 1 1/2 inches to two inches, would that be the biggest contributor to a better flow?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[mas985]

If you are measuring pressure at the filter you need to add 3' of head for the elevation of the filter.

Incresing the pipe size on pad and changing out the check valve should reduce head loss by more than 1 foot. Changing the pipe on the suction side really isn't going to help much since you have reduced the flow from the skimmer and main drain some. However, given the changes on the return side, you should be able to increase the flow from the skimmer a little and still have the cleaner working ok which will increase the pressure some more on the return side.

 

[Magnew]

Is there a cleaner that requires less suction than the Hayward that I have? (which requires 8" hg just to move around properly).

Swimming season is over for this pool, until maybe mid-March, as I don't use a solar blanket and don't want to. In the spring, I just may take the cleaner out of the water until it is needed, and open up the main drain to the system, to feed the solar better. Plus I should be able to increase the skimmer flow. Just thinking.

 

[mas985]

Yes, "ThePoolCleaner", the one I use, does not require as much flow/suction to run. Also a robotic does not require any suction at all and can run when the pool pump is off.

BTW, I think I read in another thread that you have a SWG. Are you aware that a SWG produces tiny bubbles when they are on? I am not say that is your issue but just something to be aware of.

 

[Magnew]

No, I don't have one, I just WANT one! One day.

 

[Magnew]

Well, I have run this set up for awhile now. I have not yet changed out the check valve to a flapper type nor changed the pad piping up to 2", but I am going to have to do this and maybe more. I find that I have to clean the filter once a week due to decreased flow as it loads up. Too much work.

I have a Hayward 120sf cartridge filter now. I am willing to buy a new, much bigger filter when I change out the check valve and piping, if it will help dramatically. I really want to make this 1/2 HP pump work--I love the small amp draw vs. the 1.5 hp pump that it replaced!

Any suggestions for a new filter? Am I approaching this properly?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[mas985]

A larger filter would definitely allow you to go longer between cleaning but the clean head loss of any size cartridge filter would probably be about the same. For any pool, I would not allow a filter to climb 25% above the clean pressure so if that means you would be cleaning it very often, then I would consider an upgrade. Personally, I like having a larger filter and only having to clean it once a year.

 

[Magnew]

Thank you. My pressure increases 25% above the the clean pressure within two hours of being squeaky clean!

 

[mas985]

So you get a 2-3 PSI rise in 2 hours? Even with a 120 sq-ft filter, you shouldn't need to clean it more than once a month. Are you sure you don't have an algae bloom or a calcified filter cartridge?

 

[Magnew]

Busted. I don't know if you'd call it a bloom anymore, but I do have slight traces of algae in the corners of the pool that I am battling a bit. This summer, however, I had a green swamp that happened when we were away on vacation. Took me a month to clean that up. The filter is new this season. You've got me on the calcification--not sure how I know that.

 

[mas985]

It is probably the algae that is causing the problem. Clean that up first and see how long you can go between cleanings.

 

[Magnew]

Yep, pressure gauge went from 8 to 18 in a 24-hour period. Cleaned filter again today, didn't seem dirty enough to be relieved of 10 psi after a cleaning, but it sure was. Actually, started off at 6 psi after I cleaned it. Quickly rose to 8 psi (as in 15 minutes). Water seems clear. Let the bleach begin.

I am in over my head and starting to feel dumb. Oh well.