After 8 years, deciding what way to sanitize pool in very harsh conditions (AZ)

[Diver837]

Have cleaned and dosed my 12,000 gallon pool for about 8 years now with good success, no algae outbreaks, happy swimmers and clear water. Until now with some algae in 107 heat, which is because I let the water go too long between changes and CYA levels have gotten astronomically high (when I read of people worried theirs is up to 165 and can't believe it got that high...that's nothing compared to a level you'll see in many an AZ pool). I have some repairs to make and a drain and refill to do, and now is a time to reconsider things. I've done all the following systems.

1. The TFP system.
2. Old FROG inline system (currently old and leaking and needs replaced)
3. Tricholor chlorine feeder system
4. Floaters in combo with liquid chlorine

The problem is with our vicious AZ sunshine and UV, chlorine just disappears like crazy from a shallower 6' pool from May-September. The east-coasters and northerners really have it very easy with chlorine, you can just add in reasonable amount of bleach with a safe CYA level and it will actually hold there. Southern AZ, not so much, especially from June-August. You have to use HUGE amount of chlorine bleach bottles. It's too much and I can't stand it after awhile. So I break and go to trichlor. Saltwater generators are probably the best solution, but out here lots of mixed reviews with our super hard water and other factors.

So for now, really do want to go back to a mineral based system, like FROG or Nature2 (and using an offline feeder, floater or liquid chlorine or combo thereof) and run at 0.5-1 ppm chlorine. When ran Frog when first moved in, was new to pool maintenance and ran the free chlorine still at 3 ppm so was changing those pacs too much. You can make your own with 1" tabs so the chlorine costs really isn't an issue. Nor did I see how low of chlorine level that the pool could safely and effectively get away with, and for how long. CYA does continue to build, though at a slower rate. I wouldn't mind doing a once a week bleach add in if had minerals helping. But 0.5 free chlorine is unsafe at high CYA levels and you're really relying a lot on the minerals at that point as the time grows and the water gets "older' from the last water change, so that part of the system is still a weak point to me with creeping CYA levels. Can't remember how long I was able to hold the range in the 50-150 ppm range before a water change would be needed.

Really just wondering if people have had much success in super hot, super sunny locations, shallower pool using a mineral system and running low chlorine levels? And if it helped delay drain and refill times, and were able to manage CYA levels effectively by using fewer tabs and some liquid chlorine (at a reasonable level of chlorine bottle usage.)

 

[Texas Splash]

Welcome to TFP! Diver, I'm going to be honest here ..... as a desert native myself now living in a hot & humid TX area, your weather conditions are nothing new to us at TFP. The basic principle of balancing the FC to the CYA as noted on our FC/CYA Levels is the critical component to avoiding algae. We avoid supplemental systems (i.e. Frog) because of their propensity to add metals to the water (copper). Sanitation is always best via chlorine for residential pools, either liquid chlorine (regular bleach) or chlorine gas from a salt water generator. In addition, we know those two products won't increase the CYA which should never be over 100. Tabs are okay for short-term use when the owner knows the CYA level can handle a small increase. In the southwest, the biggest challenge is typically controlling the CH which commonly requires a healthy water exchange about every 1-2 years.

Of course it's your pool, and if you chose to utilize the Frog system, you can do so. But here at TFP we strongly urge owners to avoid mineral-based systems and extended us of chlorine tablets. You'll see more from the links below and those in my signature (update your sig too please). Have a great day.

ABCs of Pool Water Chemistry
Test Kits Compared

https://www.google.com/url?client=i...FjABegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw02ZeucIcPhuNWHgMzstAYJ

[/URL]

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!

Easy to answer that -- SaltWater Chlorine Generator. Oversize it by getting a system rated for 40K pool.

You describe the environmental conditions for your pool -- well -- ours are hotter, shallow small pool, using the same fill water, and have had 0 algae and 0 operating problems for 6 years.

 

[Rossterman]

Not sure why you haven’t considered a salt system yet? Any particular reason? You can way oversize it so it will generate all the chlorine you will ever want regardless of sun and heat If you are worried about high chlorine consumption (I wouldn’t be as there are 100s of folks on here with similar weather conditions having absolutely zero problems maintaining chlorine with a salt generator). No more bleach bottles, no more emptying pool each year, just a cup of muratic acid every week or so to keep pH in check. The rj40 is way oversized for your pool but you can run it on low settings and shorter run times which will also extend the life of the cell. My guess is you’ve already paid for one in the cost of buying those other treatments and liquid chlorine over the last few years. In my mind making the switch is a no brainer.

 

[Diver837]

A SWG is definitely on the wish list. Came very close a few years back, then a few technicalities with it made me temporarily back off. Then never got back around to it. Some local pool servicers tell me that the cells can go bad quick here based on maintenance, malfunctions in salt sensors in winter, etc., but all various minor issues that could be sorted out with time and practice. Will be taking the plunge at some point.

For now, did a huge amount of pool maintenance over the past week to get back to clear water. Did a drain and refill, brushing and cleaning the floor, fixed and eliminated some chlorine killers around one edge of the pool likely allowing some phosphates in during heavy rains, fixed the Caretaker in-floor cleaning system (needed a rebuild kit), adjusted the Intelliflo pump run schedule, fixed the skimmer, repaired pool decking caulking, and cleaned out the DE filter grids and reinstalled. Did a SLAM the first night starting at dusk to clear all contaminants and it ran all night in the 25 ppm chlorine range. After that chlorine burned off, added a FROG Instant drop in kit to the skimmer basket for the season. While the water was clear when I added that, by the next day the water was INSANELY clear, never seen the water look that good before. Its feels like have a brand new pool again, and refreshed my commitment to keeping it looking that way.

Bought a new complete Taylor test kit so will know exactly what my water parameters are. After using those, see pretty quick the test strips are just too inaccurate/vague in some of the key measurements. After digging into the forums again and analyzing my maintenance, water testing and chemical dosing routine, saw about 1000 ways to improve the pool maintenance operation. I'm back to the TFB/BBB method the rest of the summer with the mineral pack running as a helper. Will be logging things this time to see the differences with everything improved. Going to halt CYA in the 20-30ppm range (so about now already) and add no more. Already can tell the minerals are a game changer. Will see how it all goes running chlorine in the 0.5ppm-1 ppm range on top of keeping the water balanced this time with reagent testing, and pool cleaned regularly with the in-floor cleaning running again. Along with brushing, got a new handheld hose powered vacuum to use occasionally.

So far, so good. Five days after refill, the Langelier Saturation Index is nearly perfect at 0.01. Do have a little bit of room for calcium in the future, if want to run a cal hypo non-stabilized tab or use it as shock. Switching to potassium monopersulfate shock as needed for now though. Loving the super clear water, and can't hardly believe these are my pool water measures:

TC 1
FC 1
PH 7.5
CYA 20
TA 110
Calcium Hardness 230
LSI 0.01

 

[Rossterman]

free Chlorine number Is too low. You need a min of 2 to prevent alge and 3-5 is the target for 20ppm cya. Ikd get some liquid chlorine in asap to get the number up. As to cya, if using tablets It will come up Over time.

BTW, the reason why some pool maintenance companies poopoo SWGs is they are competition for pool companies. Most realize that the amount of maintenece drops way off and drop the pool cleaning service providers. Today’s swgs are very reliable.

 

[HeyEng]

That low of a CYA will have you dumping GALLONS of chlorine in your pool...it will be eaten quickly by the UV. Not many people here will agree with the "augmentation" with minerals, so prepare for that critique now. The folks here at TFP tend to recommend the TFP method for some odd reason.

 

[Diver837]

I've done alot of research on the mineral systems, and based on what both the manufactures recommend and some local owners results from running a similar program, they are doing just fine at 0.5 chlorine and an up to date mineral pack and no algae. That's what prompted me to give it a try. My pool could be different of course and a green soup in a few months, so am prepared for that. Swimming in the pool right now is the most balanced, silky smooth water have ever been in so not super anxious to ramp up chlorine. It's super clear, and not a hint of algae so far.

At just 30 CYA, OCl- from the chlorine is already down to just 3% in solution and chlorine effectiveness significantly reduced. CDC recommendations are ~20 parts CYA to 1 ppm free chlorine, so right at that level. Not that my pool has any kids currently swimming in it, but they also recommend a max 15 CYA for any fecal incident or else the pool must be drained because the chlorine isn't able to kill those bacteria with that shielding. I'm still doing TFP, just with the minerals to help out to see how it goes so as to prevent becoming a chlorine bottle shuttle driver.

Was just hoping for some more input from others on a similar program, which modifies the TFP system and makes it easier.

 

[Cody]

The easiest system you could implement would be to install a SWG and follow the CYA/FC guidelines on this site. Other numbers as well, but you know what I mean. It's 102 degrees here in TX today. I saw pool guy today because I'm replacing my heater. He told me with our recent thunderstorms and high temps, he's seeing algae blooms like crazy.

I have had no issues. Crystal clear with CYA at 70 and FC at 5.5. No algae in a year.

Before last summer, I used TFP methods, but used liquid chlorine. Crystal clear pool, no algae, but a lot more work finding LC, lugging it home, adding every day. SWG was best decision I ever made.

 

[mknauss]

I've done alot of research on the mineral systems, and based on what both the manufactures recommend and some local owners results from running a similar program, they are doing just fine at 0.5 chlorine and an up to date mineral pack and no algae.

Welcome to the forum!
You are of course welcome to manage your pool as you like, but for those that might read this thread, TFPC in no way endorses the use of minerals with the expectation to not follow the FC/CYA Levels. Running very low FC is unsafe, unsanitary, and will not be accepted by TFPC.
I suggest you read ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry.

 

[Flying Tivo]

I'm still doing TFP

Not, you are definitely Not!

Was just hoping for some more input from others on a similar program, which modifies the TFP system and makes it easier.

You are not going to find any other, sorry.

 

[Jeff J.]

I've done alot of research on the mineral systems, and based on what both the manufactures recommend and some local owners results from running a similar program, they are doing just fine at 0.5 chlorine and an up to date mineral pack and no algae. That's what prompted me to give it a try. My pool could be different of course and a green soup in a few months, so am prepared for that. Swimming in the pool right now is the most balanced, silky smooth water have ever been in so not super anxious to ramp up chlorine. It's super clear, and not a hint of algae so far.

At just 30 CYA, OCl- from the chlorine is already down to just 3% in solution and chlorine effectiveness significantly reduced. CDC recommendations are ~20 parts CYA to 1 ppm free chlorine, so right at that level. Not that my pool has any kids currently swimming in it, but they also recommend a max 15 CYA for any fecal incident or else the pool must be drained because the chlorine isn't able to kill those bacteria with that shielding. I'm still doing TFP, just with the minerals to help out to see how it goes so as to prevent becoming a chlorine bottle shuttle driver.

Was just hoping for some more input from others on a similar program, which modifies the TFP system and makes it easier.

From what I understand, the issue is not algae. The metals will kill algae, but algae isn't harmful anyway. The issue is pathogens. The metals will not kill pathogens, and the 0.5-1.0 chlorine level is not considered high enough by TFP to kill the pathogens and make the pool safe to swim in.

 

[Newdude]

From what I understand, the issue is not algae. The metals will kill algae, but algae isn't harmful anyway. The issue is pathogens. The metals will not kill pathogens, and the 0.5-1.0 chlorine level is not considered high enough by TFP to kill the pathogens and make the pool safe to swim in.

Exactly. Algae is kinda like the canary in the coal mine. If it is alive, so are the viruses, bacteria, coal miners etc.

 

[HeyEng]

Welcome to the forum!
You are of course welcome to manage your pool as you like, but for those that might read this thread, TFPC in NO way endorses the use of minerals with the expectation to not follow the FC/CYA Levels. Running very low FC is unsafe, unsanitary, and will not be accepted by TFPC.
I suggest you read ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry.

I made a slight correction to what I *think* you meant.

 

[Newdude]

I caught that too. Lol.

 

[Donldson]

I've done alot of research on the mineral systems, and based on what both the manufactures recommend and some local owners results from running a similar program, they are doing just fine at 0.5 chlorine and an up to date mineral pack and no algae.

Ah yes, everyone knows that the people with a financial incentive to convince you and people with a financial investment that they need to justify are the best to get good unbiased information from.

Let me explain how these "alternatives" get sold. First, the company has to convince you that chlorine is difficult to maintain and causes all sorts of discomfort to swim in. Now that the mark has bought in to that, they convince them that you can run lower FC, which must be good based on their "chlorine bad" pitch. However, to run this lower FC you must use their costly and proprietary system. Oh, but this system of multiple different chemicals and minerals is definitely easier because... um... because they say it is! And so the mark installs the system and gets locked in to the proprietary products that are hugely marked up.

Now, far be it for me to bring science to a marketing material discussion, but it's pretty definitive that running higher chlorine levels tends to be better, within reason. See, there are things in the water that you cannot see. Sunscreen, skin cells, algae, fecal matter, urine, bacteria, etc. These things get broken down by chlorine, which produce byproducts, which are then also broken down by chlorine. Now, with lower chlorine these things break down slower and the byproducts even slower. Those byproducts have a very particular smell, I'm sure you're familiar with them. When following the FC/CYA Levels there's enough chlorine to break these things down before they are noticeable. Running lower chlorine has no actual benefits, you've just been convinced it does based on marketing lies. I know, I was sold on it too until I found TFP. That's when I removed the Frog from my pool and have never had clearer or more comfortable water.

It's your pool to run as you see fit. However, if you expect to come here and get a thumbs up on the idea of throwing metals in your water, you're woefully mistaken. Copper and silver have no place in a properly managed pool. Running lower FC has no benefits outside of lining the pockets of the King Technologies. Like all "alternative" systems, it's just half-truths and outright lies to sell a product that otherwise would just be an overpriced chlorine dispenser. Think about it: would anyone actually pay the insane markup on the bac pacs if they didn't think it offered some supposed benefit over a feeder full of 3 inch pucks?

 

[Yev]

Exactly. Algae is kinda like the canary in the coal mine. If it is alive, so are the viruses, bacteria, coal miners etc.

In todays pandemic, I would be very cautious of a low FC system.

Swimming in the pool right now is the most balanced, silky smooth water have ever been in so not super anxious to ramp up chlorine. It's super clear, and not a hint of algae so far.

With TFP, the water should always be that way. My standard for clear is flip a quarter (truthfully I use a dime) and allow it to land in the deep end. You should be able to clearly calls heads or tails.

In my opinion, you are happy with the water because of the low CYA right now. I can tell you since I have had my own pool, I have become a pool snob. I know a lot of pool owners who are happy with their water, think it is clear and perfect, but when I look at it, its worse than my water has been in 6 years.

 

[Newdude]

In todays pandemic, I would be very cautious of a low FC system

Not gonna lie, It creeped me out pre-pandemic just the same.

 

[mknauss]

Welcome to the forum!
You are of course welcome to manage your pool as you like, but for those that might read this thread, TFPC in no way endorses the use of minerals with the expectation to not follow the FC/CYA Levels. Running very low FC is unsafe, unsanitary, and will not be accepted by TFPC.
I suggest you read ABC's of Pool Water Chemistry.

Thanks

 

[Diver837]

Hi all, thanks for the input and circling back to my 13,500 gallon new pool water build thread now that it's cooled off and pool maintenance has dropped 90%.

I ended up meticulously writing down all my Taylor test kit data every day from July 2020 to present on a pool maintenance log. What I learned was the following:

1. Getting the infloor cleaning system back up fixed, keeping the pool vacuumed and brushed weekly did slightly help keep chlorine overall demand down some.

2. The mineral pack seemed to do its job at the low expectation of just being an additional backup method if chlorine dropped too low if forgot to add chlorine; I did raise my cya to 50 (I found that anything lower than that level in 108 degree sun the chlorine burnoff was insane), and kept chlorine at about 4 ppm and let it go down to about 1 at the lowest before adding more chlorine. Pool sat at 2-3 ppm most on average, and water was crystal clear all summer and soft as can be to swim in.

3. At peak June and July heat, free chlorine use was around 4ppm per day, 3 ppm rest of summer. My common add was 52 ml per day, enough for around 3ppm burnoff, or around a little less than half gallon or so of bleach. I put chlorine in every dusk, or every other night. If super lazy would add a gallon of bleach, then check a few days later before resuming the smaller does.

4. With careful record keeping, I discovered the true grind was keeping ph and alkality in good balance and pool water at balanced LSI between 0.0-0.3. My pool pH just seems to love to be at 7.8-8.0 no matter what. Adding about 1/8-1/4 gallon muriatic acid would get PH down to 7.4-7.5, and in a few days it would be always be right back up to 7.8. With the constant adding of bleach, PH would inexorably creep towards 8.1, 8.2 before I'd get it back down to 7.5 and start the rise all over again. Felt like all summer it was alot of bleach and alot of muriatic bleach adding.

5. Before I reached 50 CYA, on the occasional week I ran about 1.5 lbs trichlor tablets in an offline chlorine feeder instead of bleach. Naturally, once added, didn't need to think about chlorine till a week later as that's how long they took to dissolve. Per my testing records, pH was much less affected by that slower feeder release than 50+ml additions of bleach would cause, and frequency of muriatic acid dosage was somewhat less.

6. Just other chemistry observations; in 5 months the CH went from 250 to 400 on its own (never used any cal-hypo product). In peak summer, alkalinity would drop around ~30 ppm every 2 weeks or so with all the muriatic acid eating away at it, which had to be used to keep pH down due to all the liquid chlorine use in hard water. Couple times dosing baking soda got alkalinity back up to around 140 ppm.

End of season conclusions: With no immediate plans to install a salt generator, or a dosing meter system for chlorine and muriatic acid (both systems of which are great if anyone wants to donate the labor and parts great ha), for my pool in such high heat the easier and more efficient route is to run trichlor in my offline feeder. I'll then drain the pool after the season due to the high CYA at that point. The mineral system for the pool, I didn't see it hurting, but in the end couldn't bring myself to rely on it per the manufacturers low recommendation on FC. For my hot tub closed world environment, the mineral system is a true game changer. But in big pool exposed to elements and other factors, I'm not there yet with the minerals.

Fortunately, the pool water can drain into a tree bosque in my lower yard that really likes the water, cuts the need to irrigate that spot significantly, so that's not a complete waste of water. The $75 season cost of trichlor +$100 cost of replacement water is less than cost of all that bleach alone, let alone my time from having to add all the bleach and drive to the store to get it. But that said, running full TFP until it heats up next spring as don't have to add much chlorine to 55 degree water right now.

Going through the process this summer, met many fine TFP folks at local stores, was nice to talk shop with them on their routines. Really, by buying the stronger 15% chlorine in 4 pack carboys at the store makes the liquid chlorine not too big of deal. It gets kind of a habit and you know your pool is good to go with all other parameters in check.